The Art of True Happiness | Dr. Arthur Brooks

发布时间 2026-09-14 12:00:13 来源

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Dr. Arthur Brooks, PhD, professor at Vanderbilt University and senior fellow at Harvard Business School, is an expert on the science of happiness. He shares the three “macronutrients” of true happiness and tools for you to understand what specifically is in the way of you accessing more happiness and a sense of purpose. Dr. Brooks’ work goes beyond stories and observations by offering potent self-discovery tools for you to identify what truly matters most to you and how to shape your life around those things, and doing so, experience more joy and fulfillment. Show notes: https://go.hubermanlab.com/JUfnMOH Pre-order Andrew's book Protocols: https://protocolsbook.com Thank you to our sponsors AG1: https://drinkag1.com/huberman Our Place: https://fromourplace.com/huberman Helix Sleep: https://helixsleep.com/huberman David: https://davidprotein.com/huberman LMNT: https://drinklmnt.com/huberman Huberman Lab Website: https://www.hubermanlab.com Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/hubermanlab Threads: https://www.threads.net/@hubermanlab X: https://x.com/hubermanlab Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/hubermanlab TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@hubermanlab LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andrew-huberman Timestamps 00:00:00 Arthur Brooks 00:02:40 Public Science Education 00:04:18 Happiness, Unhappiness, Tool: 3 Macronutrients of Happiness 00:07:44 #1: Enjoyment, Pleasure; Animal Impulses vs Moral Aspirations; Exercise 00:17:35 Sponsors: OurPlace & Helix Sleep 00:20:41 Positive Self-Reflection, Public Commitments & Declare Moral Aspiration 00:26:45 Moral Differences, Politics 00:34:02 Tool: Proper Leisure & Values; Enrichment 00:41:47 Deepening Relationships & Shared Suffering 00:48:50 Sponsor: AG1 00:50:08 #2: Satisfaction, Struggle & Purpose 00:56:32 Struggle & Leisure, High Achievers; Happier with Age, Retirement 01:03:26 #3: Meaning, Regret, Idols 01:10:10 Sponsor: David 01:11:20 Regret, Tool: Identifying Your Idol, Four Idols 01:29:29 Vices & Virtues, Resisting Vices & Pursuing Moral Aspirations 01:35:50 Admiration & Unique Self-Expression; Heroes 01:44:43 Teaching & Sharing Knowledge 01:49:55 Sponsor: LMNT 01:51:15 Idols & Hedonic Treadmill, Addictive Behaviors & Quantification 01:58:26 Life Meaning & Fundamental Experiences, Tool: Break Technology Addiction 02:07:02 Faith, Gradual Exploration, Desire for the Divine 02:12:20 Atheism, Death & Nonexistence; Practice Before Feeling 02:18:18 Practicing Faith, Aging & Deepening Faith; Prayer Practice 02:26:53 Spouse Relationship; Addiction, Workaholism 02:35:06 Meaning of Your Life, Tool: 3 Questions of Meaning 02:43:25 Acknowledgments, Pilgrimages 02:47:23 Zero-Cost Support, YouTube, Spotify & Apple Follow, Reviews & Feedback, Sponsors, Protocols Book, Social Media, Neural Network Newsletter #hubermanlab #arthurbrooks Disclaimer & Disclosures: https://www.hubermanlab.com/disclaimer

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中英文字稿

幸福生活有三个主要要素。最幸福的人拥有快乐、满足和意义。这三者就是生活的“营养元素”。这很重要，因为它意味着你需要享受生活，而且要分清快乐和享乐的区别，这是很多人不明白的。我的意思是，追求享乐不是获得幸福的秘诀，而是让人走向戒瘾治疗的道路。满足感是在经历奋斗后获得的成就感或活动的喜悦。而最后但同样重要的是意义，即你存在的理由。最幸福的人牢牢掌握这三样东西，并非常积极地追求它们。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

There are three macronutrients to the happiest life. The happiest people have enjoyment, satisfaction, and meaning. Those are the three macronutrients. Now, that's important because it means you need to enjoy your life, and you need to know the difference between enjoyment and pleasure, which many people don't. I mean, the pursuit of pleasure is not the secret to happiness. It's the secret to rehab. Satisfaction, which is the joy of an accomplishment or an activity after struggle, and last but not least is meaning, the why of your existence. The happiest people have a bead on those three things, and they pursue those three things really, really actively.

现在，在这三个事物的内部，都有一个有趣的东西，叫做不快乐。在每一种幸福的宏观营养素中，你都会发现不满、挫折以及诸多的痛苦。如果你一生都像今天许多人那样，试图避免不开心、避免和消除痛苦，结果反而会错过自己的幸福。欢迎来到Huberman实验室播客，我们在这里讨论科学以及日常生活中的科学工具。我是Andrew Huberman，斯坦福医学院的神经生物学和眼科学教授。今天我的嘉宾是Arthur Brooks博士。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

Now, inside all three of those things, there's this funny thing called unhappiness. Inside each of the macronutrients of happiness, you find discontent and frustration and a lot of suffering. If you spend your life, which many people do today, trying to avoid unhappiness, trying to avoid and eliminate suffering, they will paradoxically miss their own happiness. Welcome to the Huberman Lab Podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life. I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine. My guest today is Dr. Arthur Brooks.

Arthur Brooks是范德堡大学的教授，也是哈佛商学院的高级研究员。今天，我们来探讨是什么让人们真正感到快乐，以及我们所谓的幸福究竟是什么。我欣赏Arthur Brooks的一点是，他通过实验数据、哲学，以及他自己和他人的经验，提出了具体的问题，帮助你找出对你最重要的是什么，以及阻碍你获得这些东西的原因。事实上，我必须说，这期与Arthur Brooks的对话是我在Huberman Lab播客中最喜欢的一集。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

Arthur Brooks is a professor at Vanderbilt University and a senior fellow at the Harvard Business School. Today, we discuss what makes people truly happy and what this thing we call happiness is really all about. What I love about Arthur Brooks and what you'll realize today is that he looks to experimental data, philosophy, his and others' experiences to arrive at specific questions that you can ask yourself to determine what matters most to you and what stands in the way of you actually getting those things. In fact, I must say, this episode with Arthur Brooks is one of my favorite ever on the Huberman Lab Podcast.

他十分诚实坦率、开放且乐于分享能帮助听众的知识，而且非常谦逊。多亏了阿瑟，你即将听到的对话一定会让你想要去思考、付诸行动，并时不时回味。我可以肯定地说，这段对话是我很早之前就希望能听到的。阿瑟并没有所有的答案，也不声称自己拥有，但我相信他通过努力获得了一种指南针般的智慧和一套可以帮助我们过上更好甚至伟大生活的地图。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

He is brutally honest, he's open, he's generous with knowledge that can help you, the listener, and he's incredibly humble. Thanks to Arthur, the conversation you're about to hear is one that I'm confident you'll want to think about, act on, and come back to periodically. I can say for myself with certainty that it's the conversation I wish I had heard long ago. Arthur doesn't have all the answers, nor does he claim to, but I do think he has a sort of hard-earned compass and a set of maps that we can all apply to have a much better and indeed a great life.

在我们开始之前，我想强调一下，这个播客与我在斯坦福大学的教学和研究工作是独立的。然而，它反映了我希望向公众免费提供关于科学及其相关工具的信息的愿望和努力。基于这个主题，今天的节目中会有一些赞助商。现在，让我们进入与亚瑟·布鲁克斯博士的对话。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford. It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public. In keeping with that theme, today's episode does include sponsors. And now for my conversation with Dr. Arthur Brooks.

阿瑟·布鲁克斯博士，欢迎您。谢谢你，安德鲁·胡伯曼博士。在这次播客的一开头，我们只会称对方为博士一次。我很高兴你能来。我也是。我把你当作朋友。在成为朋友之前，你已经是我的老师了。我从你那里学到了很多东西，你有很多智慧。在你展现谦逊的自我并表现低调之前，我真的想强调这一点，因为有很多人在影响、教育、指导、培训等方面有着重要作用。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

Dr. Arthur Brooks, welcome. Thank you, Dr. Andrew Huberman. We're only going to call each other doctor once at the beginning of this podcast. I'm so happy you're here. Me too. Yeah, I consider you a friend. And before we became friends, you were already my teacher. I was learning a ton from you. You have a ton of wisdom. And before you step into your humble self and push aside, I just really want to highlight that because there are a lot of people influencing, educating, advising, coaching, et cetera.

但你实际上代表了各种理念、实践和智慧的汇聚，以一种我和其他人都能理解并从中受益的方式。所以我非常期待你的到来。谢谢。我也是。我的意思是，在过去五年半里，你通过这个播客做的事情几乎改变了教育者接触大量人群的整个方式。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

But you represent, like, really the confluence of ideas and practices and wisdom in ways that I and people can really understand and benefit from. So really looking forward to having you here. Thank you. Likewise. I mean, what you've done over the past, now, five and a half years with this podcast? Just about, yeah. You changed the whole way that educators can reach a lot of people.

我们想要的是教育者。科学与公众利益。我们希望能够影响人们的生活。我们希望通过科学和创意来提升他们，团结他们。那么，怎么做呢？你要引导方向。因为你在六个月内启动了这个播客，这是一个了不起的成就。而你展示给了比你年轻和年长的一整代人，包括我这样比你年长的人，这是一件大家都能做到的事情，我们可以触达人们。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

What we want is educators. Science and the public interest. We want to touch people's lives. We want to lift them up and bring them together using science, using ideas. And how? How? How do you do that? You show the way. Because what you did was you started this podcast within six months. It was a big deal. And what you showed was a whole generation of people, younger and older than you. I'm older than you, that this is something that people can do, that we can reach people.

你让这一切成为可能。对我来说，是你让这一切成为可能。这是一份难以置信的礼物。我非常荣幸，并感谢你。我今天意识到，这次对话中最困难的部分可能是确保我们稍微把注意力放在你身上。你非常谦逊，但我很感激你的好话，我认为我们是同事也是朋友。你被称为“幸福先生”，你对幸福有很多了解，知道什么是幸福，什么不是。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

You made that possible. You made that possible for me. It was an incredible gift. Well, I'm honored and thank you. I realized today that perhaps the toughest part about this conversation is going to be to make sure that I keep you focused on you a little bit. You're so humble, but I appreciate the kind words and I consider us colleagues and friends. So you're known as the happiness guy. You know a lot about it, what it is and what it isn't.

好的，我们先从人们可以真正理解和应用的基本原则开始。什么是幸福和不幸福之间的区别？或者说，这是不是一个正确的模式？大多数人从错误的幸福观开始。你不能在定义幸福之前定义不幸福。而幸福并不是大多数人以为的那样。很多人认为幸福是一种感觉或者情绪。但这就像说火鸡的香味就是感恩节大餐一样错误。火鸡的香味是感恩节大餐的一个证据，而幸福的感觉是幸福的一个证据。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

So let's start with first principles there that people can really wrap their head around and apply. What's the difference between unhappiness and happiness? Or is that even the right model? Yeah. Most people start with the wrong model of what happiness actually is. So you can't define unhappiness until you can define happiness. And happiness is not what most people think. Most people conceive of happiness as a feeling, as an emotion. And that's quite wrong in the same way that the smell of your turkey is not the same thing as your Thanksgiving dinner. The smell of the turkey is evidence of your Thanksgiving dinner. And the feelings of happiness are evidence of happiness.

当我刚进入这个领域时，我已经作为行为科学家工作了30年，但我开始专注于人类幸福科学的研究。我在2008年写了我的第一本这方面的书。然而，在2019年，我决定从学术界暂时抽身，去华盛顿特区领导一个大型智库。我下定决心将在余下的职业生涯中专注于这个大多数人都渴望的主题，那就是幸福。人们都想要变得更快乐。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

And when I first came into the field, I mean, I've been a behavioral scientist for 30 years, but I started specializing in the science of human happiness exclusively. I wrote the first book of mine on this in 2008. But I decided in 2019, after I took a hiatus from academia to go run a big think tank in Washington, D.C., that I was going to specialize for the rest of my career in this thing that most people believe they wanted. I was going to really make it work. And there was, of course, happiness. People want to be happier.

第一件让我意识到的是，幸福并没有一个很好的定义。这简直太疯狂了。每个人都想要的东西，却很难明确地表达出来。我无法用语言描述它，但当我感受到它时就知道它。这就是我问我的学生时得到的回答。那么，你认为你在研究什么？或者说，那是我和我爱的人在一起时的感觉，或是我在做我喜欢的事情时的感觉。我认识到，在科学的其他任何领域，这样的定义都会显得完全不足够。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

And the first thing that I realized is there wasn't a very good definition of happiness. It was just so crazy. The thing that everybody wants, they can't quite define it. I can't put words to it, but I know it when I feel it. This is what I would get when I would ask my classes. So what do you think you're studying? Or it's how I feel when I'm with the people that I love or doing the things that I enjoy. And I recognized that this would be completely inadequate in any other area of science.

于是我回去试图找到一个合适的比喻，一个合适的平行领域来定义幸福。我觉得营养学这个领域做得很好，因为它把食物分解为宏量营养素和微量营养素。所以我问自己，幸福的宏量营养素是什么呢？什么是构成幸福的基本要素呢？为了弄清楚这个问题，你需要去看看那些生活满意度最高的人，那些生活满意度以稳健和正确的方法测量出来的人，这些方法有很好的构念效度和科学依据。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

And so I went back to try to find the right metaphor, the right parallel field to define happiness. And I felt that the field of nutrition did it really well by taking food and breaking it into macronutrients and micronutrients. So I asked myself, OK, what are the macronutrients of happiness? What are the fundamental elemental building blocks of happiness? And to figure that out, you go and you look at the people who have the highest life satisfaction that's measured in robust and proper ways, good construct validity, good science behind it.

通过一种因子分析，你会发现，拥有最幸福生活的三大“营养”是：享受、满足和意义。这三者就像是幸福生活的三种“宏观营养素”。这很重要，因为这意味着你需要享受生活，并且要明白享受和愉悦之间的区别，很多人并不了解这点。也就是说，追求愉悦并不是获得幸福的秘诀，它更像是通往康复中心的秘诀。你需要清楚这一点。至于满足感，那是指在经历奋斗后取得成就或完成某项活动所带来的快乐。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

And what you find is doing kind of a factor analysis is that there are three macronutrients to the happiest life. The happiest people have enjoyment, satisfaction, and meaning. Those are the three macronutrients. Now, that's important because it means you need to enjoy your life and you need to know the difference between enjoyment and pleasure, which many people don't. I mean, the pursuit of pleasure is not the secret of happiness. It's the secret to rehab, right? And so you have to understand, right? For sure. And satisfaction, which is the joy of an accomplishment or an activity after struggle.

最后但同样重要的一点是意义，也就是你存在的理由。最快乐的人往往清楚这三件事情，并积极追求它们。然而，在所有这三件事情中，都存在一个有趣的东西：不快乐。在每一个幸福的关键因素中，你都会发现不满、挫折和许多痛苦。因此，关于幸福的第二个误解是它与不快乐不相容，其实并非如此。如果你像很多人今天那样度过一生，试图避免不快乐，试图避免和消除痛苦，那么很可能会错过自身的幸福。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

And last but not least is meaning, the why of your existence. The happiest people have a bead on those three things and they pursue those three things really, really actively. Now, inside all three of those things, there's this funny thing called unhappiness. Inside each of the macronutrients of happiness, you find discontent and frustration and a lot of suffering. And so the first, or I should say the second misunderstanding about happiness is that it's incompatible with unhappiness. It's not. If you spend your life, which many people do today, trying to avoid unhappiness, trying to avoid and eliminate suffering, they will paradoxically miss their own happiness.

所以，这是首先需要理解的事情。你能不能更深入地探讨一下享受、满足和意义，并给每个概念加上一些轮廓，然后再谈谈不开心和痛苦是如何与这三者相关的呢？当然可以。享受与快乐紧密相关，但快乐本质上是一种边缘系统现象。也就是说，如果你在实验中——这些实验你一直都在做、也见过很久了——刺激大脑的腹侧纹状体或腹侧被盖区，就能得到一种兴高采烈的感觉。这种直接的快乐感可以来源于各种事情，比如你的女朋友对你说“安德鲁，我爱你”，或者是一大剂量的可卡因。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

So that's the first thing to understand. Could you drill a little bit deeper into enjoyment, satisfaction, and meaning and maybe just put some contour on each of those and go back to unhappiness and suffering and how it relates to all three? For sure. So enjoyment is very much related to pleasure, but pleasure is fundamentally a limbic phenomenon. I mean, if you touch in experiments, you've done these, you've seen these experiments forever, the ventral striatum or the ventral tegmental area, you can get this stimulation of these parts of the brain that will give you the sense of ebullience, the sense of, you know, immediate joy from anything from your girlfriend saying, Andrew, I love you, or a big bump of cocaine.

不是说你会这样做，因为大脑非常节俭，对吧？这并不是幸福的一部分。这是一种来自更新世中期大脑的现象，大约是25万年前的事情，它告诉你，这样做会有回报，你去多做些那样的事情。事情的本质大概就是这样。你不希望将这种追求作为你的人生目标。就像嬉皮士曾经说的，如果感觉很好，那就去做。我父亲说，这是美国的末日。他有点说对了。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

Not that you would, because the brain is so unbelievably thrifty, right? That's not part of happiness. That's a phenomenon from sort of the Pleistocene brain, from something, the middle Pleistocene, what, 250,000 years ago, saying, that's rewards you. Go get more of that. That's kind of what it comes down to. You don't want to have that as your goal in life. I mean, like the hippies used to say, if it feels good, do it. My dad said, that's the end of America. He was kind of right.

我觉得你爸爸和我爸爸可能是朋友。我并不认为我们有同一个父亲，但是他们可能就像分隔的鸟群一样。对嬉皮士无意冒犯，但我爸爸对待有那种思维方式的人及其孩子有一些明确的看法，他认为这种思想让他们处于劣势。很快就会发生的是，我们的快乐，本质上是动物性的。我是说，你的狗，你那只漂亮的新狗，友好的新狗，我刚刚见到的那只，它的边缘系统和你相差不多，它的情感和你也差不多，对吧？我是说，它有杏仁核，有背侧前扣带皮层，有腹侧纹状体。它具备这些各种各样的部分，就像我们一样，但它不是人，因为它主要由这些情感所管理，而我们则有选择的权力。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

I think your dad and my dad either were friends. I don't think we have the same dad, but. Separated birds. No disrespect to the hippies, but my dad had very clear thoughts about how the children of people with that mindset were at a disadvantage because of that message specifically. What will happen, of course, very quickly is that your pleasures, which are fundamentally animal. I mean, your dog, your beautiful new dog, friendly new dog that I just met, he has a limbic system not that different than yours, and he feels emotions that are not that different than yours, right? I mean, he has amygdala, you know, he has a dorsal anterior cingulate cortex. He has a ventral strain. I mean, he's got all these different parts, just kind of like we do, but he's not human because he's managed largely by these emotions, and we have this choice.

我们人类拥有一个令人惊叹的额叶皮层，这个人类大脑皮层非常庞大。而你的狗的大脑皮层则非常薄。我们的大脑皮层的重量占大脑总重量的30%，这个“超级计算机”让我们能够在动物本能和道德追求之间做出选择。这是一个有意识的决策。当我们将快乐转化为享受时，是因为其中包含了道德追求。我们将愉悦加入人际关系和记忆中，从而使其成为一个我们管理、理解、意识到并能记住的体验，这本质上是一种社会行为。事实上，这正是人类独有的特点。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

We have this incredible prefrontal cortex, this human cortex that's enormous. Your dog's is wafer thin. Ours is like 30% of the weight of our brain, and what that supercomputer allows us to do is to choose between animal impulses and moral aspirations. We get to make that choice. That's a conscious executive choice. When we convert pleasure into enjoyment, it's because it takes on moral aspiration to it. We take our pleasures and we add people in memory, thereby kind of delivering them to an executive experience that we're managing, that we understand, that we're conscious of, that we can remember, and that's fundamentally social. It's quintessentially human, as a matter of fact.

这就是重点所在。所以，我会和我的研究生们聊天，他们的平均年龄是28岁，还有我的孩子们，分别是28岁、26岁和23岁。你知道，这意味着什么吗？对大多数人来说，这意味着如果有让你感觉良好的东西，因为我们每个人都有这样一个东西，无论是高血糖的碳水化合物，还是任何上瘾行为。事实上，这些东西可能会让人产生依赖，因为它们会影响多巴胺系统。关于这个话题，你已经在各种场合反复谈到了很多次。如果你是在独自做这件事，那可能你错了。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

That's what it's all about. So I talk to my students who are graduate students who are 28 years old on average, and my kids who are 28, 26, and 23. You know, what does this mean? And for most people, what it means is if there's something that makes you feel good, because we all have our thing, whether it's highly glycemic carbohydrates or any kind of addictive behavior. And in point of fact, it can be dependence-provoking, which many things can, when they wire into the dopamine system. You've talked about this ad nauseam so many times I've heard you talk about this. If you're doing it alone, you're probably doing it wrong.

可能这更多是关于快乐，而不是享受。这个标准并不完美。我喜欢一个人在树林里散步和祈祷，但这些事情并不会上瘾。所以我们应该这样去理解这个问题：你需要享受生活。这意味着有些事情在精神或物质层面上能带给你快乐，但这些事情也包含着人们的记忆，你在管理它们，而不是被它们管理。这大致上就是我对享受的看法。然而，许多人在这方面并不擅长，尤其是那些努力追求成功的人。谁会听你的播客呢？那些对自己生活很认真对待的人。没有人会随随便便地听你的播客，所以真正会听的人是关心自己生活的人。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

Probably it's probably more about pleasure and less about enjoyment. It's not a perfect rule. I like to walk in the woods by myself and say my prayers, but those things aren't addictive. And so that's how to think about it. You need to enjoy your life. And that means there are things that give you pleasure at a metaphysical or physical level, but they also have people in memory, and you're managing them, and they're not managing you. So that's kind of, in a nutshell, how I think about enjoyment. Now, many people are bad at that, especially strivers. Who listens to your podcast? People who are serious about their lives. There's nobody that's like, eh, whatever. Who's going to listen to your podcast?

我们不是一个随意的播客，而是一个奋斗者的播客。我们应该有个标题卡，叫《如何随意》。是啊，我知道，这不会太成功的——那就当作我们的愚人节特别节目吧。我明白，这不是那种随便的播客。像我这样的人会上这样的节目。而对于那些奋斗者来说，他们常常面临的挑战是：如果他们非常非常有竞争力、雄心勃勃并且很成功，他们往往会更想与众不同，而不是追求快乐。所以他们总想取得成绩，如果一件事不能为他们赢得分数，他们就不会去做。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

We're not a whatever podcast. You're a striver podcast. We should do a title card sometime, How to Whatever. Yeah, I know. That won't go very well. That'll be our April Fool's episode. I know. That's not one of those podcasts. Guys like me on. And what strivers, one of the things they often struggle with, if they're very, very, very competitive, if they're ambitious, if they're successful, is that they want to be special more than they want to be happy. And so they want to put points on the board. And if it's not putting points on the board, they're not going to do it.

这些人是我必须一起工作的人，我们要研究享受生活的「宏量营养素」。是否有担心如果他们更加享受生活、更加快乐，他们就会失去动力？嗯，你提到享受、满足感和生命意义的时候，我很喜欢这个描述。享受可以看作是动物本能的一种表现，但同时也有另一种极端，那就是道德追求。一个美好生活的一部分难道不应该是将这两者结合起来，让你对动物本能的追求提升你的道德境界吗？

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

And these are the people that I have to work with to work on the macronutrient of enjoyment. Is there fear that were they to enjoy life more, be happier, I'm probably using these terms incorrectly. No, no, no, why not? That somehow they would lose their drive? Yeah. Because as you were describing enjoyment, satisfaction, and meaning, and by the way, I love this. Description of enjoyment as, you know, we have animal impulses, but then there's this other end of the spectrum, which are moral aspirations. Wouldn't at least some component of a great life be to marry those two things so that your pursuit of these animal impulses actually raised you up morally?

当然，这就是最极致的体现。我是说，现在媒体上有很多这样的例子，尤其是在各种选举中，很多知名政治家的职业生涯都因此而毁掉。我相信，他们可能本意是想成为好人，但诱惑最终还是毁了他们的职业。是的，确实如此。所以很明显，这种情况存在于他们身上，也存在于很多人、所有人身上，对吧？但是，事情居然会发展成这样，这几乎让人觉得像是对动物本能的误用。有没有什么方法能够将动物本能与道德追求无缝结合，或者这总是能做到的吗？不不不，你刚刚就已经定义了享受。真正的享受是，当你做的事既明智又自然并且是你认为好的，同时也是你愿意看到自己去做的事情。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

Absolutely. It's the ultimate. I mean, we have so many examples now in the media of prominent politicians in particular with all the elections going on, where their careers are tanked. I do believe they might have been trying to be good people on average, but temptation ruined that career anyway. Totally, totally. And so it's clear it exists in them and in many, in everyone, right? Yeah. But the fact that that can happen, it almost feels like a misuse of the animal impulse. Yeah. Is there a way to marry animal impulse to moral aspiration in a way that's seamless, or does it always work? No, no, you have just defined enjoyment. Proper enjoyment is one where you are, you're doing what you, what you think is prudent and natural and good to do. It's something that you want to see yourself doing.

与此同时，这也是一种享受。这就是为什么在我35年的婚姻中，最美好的时刻是令人愉悦和极其享受的。这种感觉就像是，即使媒体曝光我又和Esther度过了一个美好的夜晚，我也不会觉得有什么问题。归根结底，这就是一种美好。事实上，我们每个人都在与这些事情斗争，因为我们是生物生物。虽然我主要是个行为科学家，但心理学实际上就是生物学。过去十年中，我不得不在很多方面重新进行训练，因为生物学在我们的领域中变得越来越显著。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

And at the same time, it's pleasurable. You know, that's why the best moments over the course of my 35-year marriage are highly pleasurable and extremely enjoyable. And it's the kind of thing where I could get, you know, found out by the press that I'm having another beautiful night with Esther. You know, that's good is what it comes down to. And the truth is, we all struggle with these things because we are biological creatures. You know, I'm fundamentally a behavioral scientist, but psychology is biology. And one of the things I've had to retrain in so many of these areas, especially over the past 10 years, is because the biology has become so salient in our field.

人们常常遇到的问题之一，是动物本能和道德追求往往朝着不同的方向发展。如何使这两者朝着同一个方向前进，是生活中的一个重要策略。有时候，你需要做出选择。人们往往觉得，如果一件事情让他们感觉良好，那它一定对自己有好处，所以他们就按这种感觉行事。这种想法就像原始生物的目标一样简单，觉得不好的事情就一定对自己有坏处。例如，实际上很多事情虽然在过程中感觉"痛苦"，但可能对人们有益。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

And one of the things that you find is that the trouble that people actually have is when animal impulse and moral aspiration go in different directions. And one of the great strategies for life is how to point them in the same direction. How to, and sometimes you have to choose. Sometimes you have to choose. And people feel like it's, I should, you know, if it feels good, it must be good for me. But that's how I'm going to do it. That's having the same life goals as protozoa or something, you know. Or if it feels bad, it must be bad for me. Yeah, for example. And there's probably a lot of things that people should, could benefit from doing that are going to feel, quote unquote, painful in the process.

我在健身房。我是个健身狂，你也是。你喜欢锻炼吗？我喜欢锻炼。真的很喜欢。不过很有趣的是，每次锻炼腿部那天，我还是想吐。我几乎每天都去健身房，已经持续了30年。哇，你的身材真不错。而且我感觉很好，显然别人一看就能看出来。我知道我感觉很好。可以分享一下你的年龄吗？你62岁？不，我60岁。身材保持得很好。这也得益于我的基因让我很瘦，所以能保持大约10%的体脂并不是什么值得炫耀的事情，这就是天生如此。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

I'm in the gym. I'm a gym rat. So are you. Do you like training? I like training. I really do like training. But it's a funny thing because leg day, I still want to throw up. I've been in the gym almost every day for 30 years. Wow. You're in great shape, by the way. I feel good. I mean, it's obvious to anyone watching. I know what I feel good, yeah. Is it okay to share? You're 62? Yeah, 60 years old. Great shape. Yeah. And it's, you know, I've got genetics that keep me really lean. So it's not like it's any flex that I can stay at, you know, 10% body fat or something like that. That's not, that's just, that's just nature.

但实际上，我意识到我需要保持身体的良好状态，因为大脑是身体的一部分。我们都知道，进行剧烈运动、举重和跑步对情绪管理以及身体整体运作的维护来说是非常重要的。我不想成为所谓的“3型糖尿病”（现在我们这样称呼阿尔茨海默症）的受害者，也不愿意患上那些可以避免的代谢疾病。所以，我确实在锻炼。不过，练腿真的很难受。我练腿已经坚持了30年，每四天一次，但我还是不喜欢它。我总是想着要跳过练腿日，每天都是练胸日，因为大家都喜欢练胸，对吧？因为感觉更好。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

But the truth is, I recognize that I need to keep the machine in good shape because the brain is part of the machine. And as we both know, hard exercise, picking up heavy things and running around is fundamental to affect management and also to the maintenance of the overall functioning of how the machine works. I don't want to fall prey to, you know, type 3 diabetes, which is what we're calling Alzheimer's these days. I don't want metabolic disorders that are avoidable. So I actually, I do that. Now, leg day sucks, man. I mean, I've been doing leg day every fourth day for 30 years. And I still don't like it. I would still skip leg day. Every day would be chest day because everybody likes chest day, right? Because it feels better.

但事实是，我这么做是因为我真正了解肌肉蛋白质合成的运作原理。我知道对于激素平衡来说，锻炼腿部是最重要的，因为这些部位肌肉群很大。那么我在做什么呢？我在做出一个放弃自己的舒适、快乐，甚至一时的幸福的决定，去追求我真正拥有的道德理想。这引出了该领域研究的一个重要结论：大自然并不在乎你是否快乐。我们都认为如果我不快乐，那一定是哪里出了问题。但事实并非如此，你可能需要经历各种痛苦才会真正成长为一个更好的人。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

But the truth is that I do it because I actually know how the muscle protein synthesis works. I know that for hormone balance, leg day is the most important day for these really large muscle groups. And what am I doing? I'm making the decision to do something that foregoes my comfort, my pleasure, even a moment of my happiness for the moral aspiration that I actually have. And that leads to this important conclusion from the research in this area, which is that mother nature doesn't care if you're happy. This is, you know, we all think it's like if I'm not happy, then something's not right. No, no. It might very well be not right. You know, there are all kinds of suffering that you actually need to grow as a person.

你需要负面情绪，因为这些情绪就像一个警报系统，表明你的原始大脑感知到了某些信号，并把这些信号传递给边缘系统，从而触发悲伤、愤怒、厌恶和恐惧等情绪的警报。这些情绪虽然让人不舒服，但并不意味着有什么不对，反而说明一切正常。你可以根据自己的意愿来应对这些情绪，从而改善生活质量，即使这种感觉并不好受。这是一种自律的生活，是一种实现自我期望并值得道德追求的生活方式。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

You need negative emotions because negative emotions are an alarm system that show that your reptilian brain has registered signals sending these signals to your limbic system and setting off alarms from sadness and anger and disgust and fear. That's unpleasant, but that doesn't mean anything's wrong. It means everything's right. How you react to it can be how you want to in so doing have a better having a better life, notwithstanding the fact that it doesn't feel good. And that's a life of discipline. That's a life of the kind of behavior that you actually want. That's worth moral aspiration.

我想稍微暂停一下，感谢我们的赞助商——Our Place。Our Place 制作了我最喜欢的锅具和其他厨具。令人惊讶的是，有害化学物质如 PFAS（也称为“永久化学品”）仍然存在于 80% 的不粘锅、厨具、家电和无数其他厨房产品中。正如我之前在播客中提到的，这些 PFAS 或永久化学品如特氟龙与激素失调、肠道菌群失调、生育问题等主要健康问题有关。因此，避免使用它们非常重要。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

I'd like to take a quick break to acknowledge our sponsor, Our Place. Our Place makes my favorite pots, pans, and other cookware. Surprisingly, toxic compounds such as PFASs or forever chemicals are still found in 80% of nonstick pans, as well as utensils, appliances, and countless other kitchen products. As I've discussed before on this podcast, these PFASs or forever chemicals like Teflon have been linked to major health issues such as hormone disruption, gut microbiome disruption, fertility issues, and many other health problems. So it's very important to avoid them.

这就是为什么我非常喜欢Our Place。我对Our Place产品情有独钟的原因在于其使用了最高质量的材料，而且完全没有PFAS（全氟和多氟烷基物质）和其他有害物质。我特别喜欢他们的Titanium Always Pan Pro。这是第一个不含化学物质和涂层的不粘锅。它使用的是纯钛材料，这意味着它没有有害的永久性化学物质，不会随着时间的推移而失去不粘特性。它的外观也非常漂亮。我几乎每天早上都用Titanium Always Pan Pro煎蛋。它的设计让鸡蛋能够完美煎熟，不会粘锅。我还用它煎汉堡和牛排，每次都能让肉表面烙出漂亮的焦痕。而且，食物都不会粘在锅上，所以清理起来很方便，甚至可以用洗碗机清洗。我非常喜欢它，经常使用。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

This is why I'm a huge fan of Our Place. Our Place products are made with the highest quality materials and are all PFAS and toxin-free. I particularly love their Titanium Always Pan Pro. It's the first nonstick pan made with zero chemicals and zero coating. Instead, it uses pure titanium. This means it has no harmful forever chemicals and does not degrade or lose its nonstick effect over time. It's also beautiful to look at. I cook eggs in my Titanium Always Pan Pro almost every morning. The design allows for the eggs to cook perfectly without sticking to the pan. I also cook burgers and steaks in it, and it always puts a really nice sear on the meat. But again, nothing sticks to it, so it's really easy to clean, and it's even dishwasher safe. I love it, and I use it constantly.

所以，如果你正在寻找无毒且持久的炊具，可以访问 fromourplace.com slash Huberman，并使用代码 Huberman。你可以享受到100天无风险试用、免费送货以及免费退货的服务，零风险尝试 Our Place，看看为什么超过100万人已经选择了 Our Place 的厨具。今天的节目还由 Helix Sleep 赞助。Helix Sleep 提供根据你的独特睡眠需求定制的床垫和枕头。我在这个节目和其他播客中都多次提到，良好的睡眠是心理健康、身体健康和表现优秀的基石。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

So if you're looking for non-toxic, long-lasting pots and pans, go to fromourplace.com slash Huberman and use the code Huberman. With a 100-day risk-free trial, free shipping, and free returns, you can try Our Place with zero risk, and you can see why more than 1 million people have made the switch to Our Place kitchenware. Today's episode is also brought to us by Helix Sleep. Helix Sleep makes mattresses and pillows that are customized to your unique sleep needs. Now, I've spoken many times before on this and on other podcasts about the fact that getting a great night's sleep is the foundation of mental health, physical health, and performance.

当我们不能持续获得良好的睡眠时，各方面都会受到影响；而当我们睡得好且充足时，我们的心理健康、身体健康和各方面的表现都会显著提升。你每晚的睡眠质量与所使用的床垫有很大关系。床垫的软硬度影响你的舒适度，需要根据你的独特睡眠需求量身定制。如果你访问Helix网站，可以进行一个短短两分钟的测验，问卷会询问你一些问题，比如：你喜欢仰睡、侧睡还是趴睡？你或许知道，也可能不知道。你在夜间感觉偏热还是偏冷？诸如此类的问题。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

When we aren't getting great sleep on a consistent basis, everything suffers, and when we are sleeping well and enough, our mental health, physical health, and performance in all endeavors improve markedly. Now, the mattress you sleep on makes a huge difference in the quality of sleep that you get each night. How soft it is or how firm it is all play into your comfort and need to be tailored to your unique sleep needs. If you go to the Helix website, you can take a brief two-minute quiz, and it will ask you questions such as, Do you sleep on your back, your side, or your stomach? Maybe you know, maybe you don't. Do you tend to run hot or cold during the night? Things of that sort.

您可以回答这些问题，然后Helix会为您匹配最理想的床垫。对我来说，结果是Dusk（D-U-S-K）床垫。我已经在Dusk床垫上睡了四年多，这是我拥有过的最好的睡眠体验。如果您想试试Helix，可以访问helixsleep.com/huberman，完成那个两分钟的睡眠问卷，Helix会为您匹配一款定制的床垫。目前，Helix在全场提供高达27%的折扣。Helix还与TruMed合作，您可以使用HSA和FSA资金购买Helix获奖的床垫。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

You answer those questions, and Helix will match you to the ideal mattress for you. For me, that turned out to be the Dusk, D-U-S-K mattress. I've been sleeping on a Dusk mattress for more than four years now, and it's been far and away the best sleep that I've ever had. If you'd like to try Helix, you can go to helixsleep.com slash Huberman, take that two-minute sleep quiz, and Helix will match you to a mattress that's customized for you. Right now, Helix is giving up to 27% off their entire site. Helix has also teamed up with TruMed, which allows you to use your HSA FSA dollars to shop Helix's award-winning mattresses.

再次访问 helixsleep.com/Huberman，即可享受高达27%的折扣。我对你刚才提到的这个观点感触很深，那就是你说的这种道德追求与做出自己希望能看到的行为有很大关系。这让我很喜欢，因为我认为对于许多人来说，他们希望看到自己做出让他人认可的事情。从小我们就被告知应该做什么以及为什么要这样做，比如你需要盛装出席某个活动，或者你需要以特定的方式坐着、吃饭、讲礼貌，所有这些都是我们作为人类成长过程中重要的一部分。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

Again, that's helixsleep.com slash Huberman to get up to 27% off. I've got this statement that you just mentioned, like ringing in my ears in the best way, which is that you're saying this moral aspiration piece has a lot to do with or reflects doing what you want to see yourself doing. I really like that because I think for many people, they want to see themselves doing things that others would approve of. And from a young age, we're told what we should do and why. You need to get dressed up for this event, or you need to sit a certain way, eat a certain way, be polite, and these things, which are all important parts of our training as humans.

但是，当我们看到自己在做某件事情时，就像你指出的那样，确实会发生一些特别的事情。对吧。这种感觉很好，并且是对自己积极的反思，而不是自我膨胀的那种。我认为我们对此讨论得不够，因为现在有太多关于社交媒体只是一种比较的说法。人们总是在向他人展示自己在做什么。但是，还有一种不同的方式，有人做了一件让自己感到自豪的事情，并把它放到互联网上，他们看到自己做的事情值得骄傲，并且获得反馈。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

But there's something really special that happens when we, as you point out, when we see ourselves doing something. Right. And it feels good, and it's a positive self-reflection of the non-egotistical con, right? And I don't think we talk enough about this because there's so much out there now about how social media is all about comparisons. So people are showing other people, here's what I'm doing. But there's a different version of that where somebody does something that they're proud of and puts it to the internet, and they're seeing themselves do something that they're proud of doing, and they get the feedback.

只要他们能保持自我克制，不让正面的评价冲昏头脑，也不会在下次评价不那么多时感到失望，或者被那些正向反馈控制，我觉得这样就很好。他们看到自己在锻炼。顺便说一句，这不仅限于锻炼，它也可以是画画、家庭时间、志愿服务等。我们往往会觉得这些活动只是为了展示。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

And, you know, provided that their ego is in check and they don't let the positive comments go to their head or set them up for disappointment when they don't get as many of them the next time, or things that are wired into those reinforcement circuits, I think that's great. They're seeing themselves exercising. By the way, it could be painting. It could be time with family. It could be being in volunteer and service. And we tend to look at that stuff and say, oh, you know, they're just doing the display.

因此，我的问题是，如何在动物本能和道德抱负之间实现理想的平衡，即我们看到自己在做我们希望看到自己做的事情，但不分享这种经历。因为我认为分享可能会在某种程度上削弱这种体验。是的，它有可能。但是，我认为明确表达你的道德抱负非常重要。部分原因是，这会让你产生一种承诺偏见。这方面有很多行为科学研究，很多心理学研究也讨论了承诺偏见。比如你说，“这是我要做的事情，我要完成我的博士学位。”

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

So my question is to really get the ideal match between this animal impulse and moral aspirations piece, that we see ourselves and experience ourselves doing what we want to see ourselves doing, and that we not share it. Because I'm open to the idea that the sharing diminishes it somehow. It can. Yeah. It can. But fundamentally, I think it's actually quite important that you declare what your moral aspirations are. And part of the reason is because this gives you a commitment bias. So there's a lot of behavioral science about that, a lot of psychology that actually talks about commitments bias. When you say, here's the thing that I'm actually going to do, I'm going to finish my Ph.D.

婚礼是一个非常重要的部分。我参加过很多婚礼。婚礼仪式真是个奇妙的经历。它让你在追求自己目标的道路上更加坚定。人们在他们的朋友面前发出许多非常精彩的承诺，然后收到一堆礼物。我对此一点也不感到愤世嫉俗。从奖励的角度来看，这是在奖励他们所做出的承诺。除了庆祝当下的结合，很大一部分奖励还在于你给他们未来生活的支持。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

This is a big part of weddings. I attended a lot of weddings. And it's kind of an amazing thing, this wedding ceremony. Makes you path dependent toward your own aspirations. People stand up and give a bunch of really amazing promises in front of all their friends. And then they get a bunch of gifts. And I'm not cynical about this at all. Like from a reward pathway perspective, it's like you're rewarding the promises that they're making. In addition to the union that they're in right then, a lot of the reward is like you're giving them things for their life going forward.

遗憾的是，我有一些朋友已经离婚了。根据婚礼的时间长短，他们往往对婚礼收到的礼物感到有些不好意思。就像他们为了当初的承诺收到了这些礼物，而现在他们改变了主意。有些情况是这些承诺没有实现，他们决定分开。婚姻的誓言本是“直到死亡将我们分开”，但现在却变成了“直到生活变得不够方便时，我们就分开”。这种公开承诺永不放弃的传统行为仍在上演，确实让人感慨。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

Sadly, I have a number of friends who've been divorced. And depending on how long ago the wedding was, they often feel quite sheepish about all the gifts. Like they got all these gifts for the promises they made. Now they've changed their mind. Right. Some cases broken those promises, but they've changed their mind. Right. It's not till death do us part. Right. It's now until it got inconvenient enough that we're going to part ways. Right. And it's an incredible still occurring kind of ancient display of promising publicly, I'm not going to quit.

是的，完全同意。这是我生命中无论顺境逆境、健康或疾病，都要一起走过的人。这就像婚礼誓言中提到的那些内容。在说这些誓言时，其实是承认生活中会有困难的时候。也就是说，无论是富裕还是贫穷，我们都要坚持到底，尽管我们一开始就知道未来可能会有贫穷，有疾病，会遇到麻烦。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

Yeah. No, totally. This is my person through thick and thin, through sickness and in health and all the things that you actually talk about. You're actually talking in the wedding promises. You're saying it's going to suck sometimes. That's what you're saying. I mean, it's like richer and poorer, and we're going to stick this thing out despite the fact that we're stating right up front that there's going to be times of poverty, there's going to be times of sickness, there's going to be trouble ahead.

这基本上是在说，快乐中包含着忧伤。我在定义快乐。那我如何定义快乐呢？我希望能活到八九十岁，当我临终时，我会凝视着她的眼睛，就像堂吉诃德的杜尔西内娅一样，并在吟诵圣经时咽下最后一口气。这基本上就是你在表达的意思。你将这视为你的幸福感。如果这不是你的幸福，那你就会质疑自己为什么要这样做。我想要这样，因为这就是美好的人生。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

And that's basically saying that happiness has unhappiness in it. I'm defining happiness. How am I defining happiness? That I'm going to get 80, 90 years, and as I take my dying breath, I'm going to be looking. I'm like Don Quixote, and this is my Dulcinella. And I'm going to be looking into her eyes as I recite the holy scriptures and take my dying breath. That's basically what you're saying. And you're defining that as your bliss. I mean, if it weren't your bliss, you'd be like, why are you doing it? I want it. Because that's a good life.

这就是你所表达的意思。你在描述真正的幸福是什么样的，同时你指出其中会充满不快乐。你所说的就是这一点。人们需要理解的是，这就是最终的结论。当你公开表达你的道德承诺时，你实际上是在承认幸福与不幸是交织在一起的。而你希望体验这一切，你基本上是在说，"让我迎接它吧"。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

That's what you're stating. And you're laying out what actually happiness looks for. And you're saying it's going to be full of unhappiness. That's what you're saying. And that's the thing for people to understand, that that's what it comes down to. When you are laying out publicly your moral commitments, when you're actually saying this, what you're saying is you're recognizing that happiness and unhappiness are intertwined. And you want the full, you're basically saying, bring it on.

这就像勇气。它是你向世界宣告独立，但同时也宣告彼此之间依赖的一种表现，这是非常美好的。这就像你成年后公开接受洗礼一样。无论你何时加入一个新的宗教，总是会有这些关于道德追求的承诺，你会意识到，是的，这有时可能会与我们本能的冲动相悖。当然。你知道，这也是我喜欢现代互联网文化的一点。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

It's like courage. It's a declaration of your independence from the world and your dependence on each other, which is a beautiful thing. It's what you do when you're publicly baptized as an adult. Anytime that you're taken into a new religion, there's always these commitments about these moral aspirations that you're making, recognizing, yeah, sometimes this is going to go contrary to my animal impulses. Absolutely. And, you know, this is one of the things that I love about sort of the modern internet culture.

有很多事情让人后悔。你我都会看着那些事情，心里都想，哎呀，不好。不过，我真的很喜欢的一点是，这些事情促成了一场全面追求卓越的运动。很多人都渴望做到出色。你知道，这不只是一个人类播客，也不仅仅是高端娱乐。人们想要有优势，他们想知道，为什么他们对这些规则如此着迷？

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

There's a lot to regret. There's a lot that you and I look at and we're like, oh, no. You know. But the other thing I really, really like is this facilitated this wholesale movement of aspiration for excellence. A lot of people, they want to be excellent. You know, it's like this isn't just the human podcast. It's not just entertainment, high-class entertainment. People want an edge. They want to know, you know, why are they so attracted to the protocols?

协议为了什么？为了更好。他们希望更成功。他们希望更受欢迎。他们希望事情对他们来说更顺利。这是一种人类追求卓越的动力。当人们终于能够接受这样一个事实：你的动物本能并不总是，也常常不会引导你走向卓越时，你就可以真正得到解放。你是否认为许多政治上、社会上的摩擦基本上是关于划定动物本能和道德追求之间的界限？

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

Protocols toward what? Toward being better. They want to be more successful. They want to be better liked. They want things to go better for them. That's a human drive for excellence. And when people can finally make peace with the fact that your animal impulses will not always and frequently not lead you to excellence, then you can finally be free. Do you think that a lot of the friction out there politically, socially, is basically about drawing the line between what is animal impulse and what is moral aspiration?

我觉得我不想让我们过于偏离主题。不，告诉我更多，你是什么意思？我是说，有些动物的本能是显而易见的，对吧？对于神经生物学家来说，我们会说这些非常像边缘系统和下丘脑的活动。对。但是，有些人会说，传统的婚姻和道德观念是这样的，对吧？同时，也有人认为我们应该稍微改变这种观念，让人们可以拥有所谓的非传统关系或非传统家庭。或者，我想每个人都会同意撒谎、欺骗和偷窃是不好的，对吧？但我觉得有人试图在道德与不道德之间划出一条曲曲折折的线，认为只要是双方自愿且出于爱，一些不符合圣经传统道德的事情也是可以接受的。对吧？而我们并不是在谈论违反法律的事情。没有没有。确实有人把这种观点推到了极致。我知道，但是这是少数，对吧？

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

I mean, I don't want to take us too far down. No, tell me more. What do you mean? I mean, some of the animal impulses are obvious, right? And they're all, for the neurobiologists, we would say they're very like limbic hypothalamic, right? Yeah. But, you know, some people would say, okay, like, here's the, quote, unquote, traditional model of marriage and morality. Yeah. And some people would say, actually, we want to kind of bend that a certain way where people could have, quote, unquote, unconventional relationships or unconventional families. Or, I mean, I think everyone would agree that lying, cheating, and stealing is bad, right? But there's an attempt, I think, to draw a kind of jagged line between moral and immoral that, you know, certain things that are not of biblical, traditional morality are okay because as long as they're done consensually and in the name of love. Right. Right? And we're not talking about breaking laws here. No, no. Some people really push this to the extreme. I know, I know. But that's marginal, right?

我想避开具体问题，并不是因为要在政治上小心翼翼，而是因为我觉得我们该如何划分原始意识和高级思维的界限真的很难。事实上，这种思维方式似乎已经颠倒过来了，有人会说，更先进的思维方式是超越这些简单的黑白道德观，能看到爱、家庭、婚姻、承诺、养育孩子等方面有各种各样的可能性。对吧。这让我想到本丢·彼拉多的那句“什么是真理？”对吧。这就是非常后现代主义的。这种思潮确实非常后现代主义。我感觉大家在这条界限上来回拉扯。就像在科学界，有些人会说，那些传统的科学家和医生才真正掌握了知识。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

And I'm staying off specific issues, not to be, like, politically careful here, but just because I feel like a lot of it is, like, where are we going to draw the line between limbic and higher order? In fact, it actually gets inverted where people will say, no, the more evolved way of thinking is past all that, where you can really get beyond this very, you know, black and white morality and really say, oh, there's all sorts of versions of what love, family, marriage, marriage, commitment, child rearing could look like. Right. Pontius Pilate, what is truth? Right. Right. It's very postmodern. Yeah, it is very postmodern. But I think that it, I mean, I feel like this is that, like, people are pulling back and forth on this line. Just like in science, people are trying to say, the scientists and doctors that are all, you know, traditional scientists and physicians, they have the knowledge.

然后，一些普通大众开始说，其实在疫情期间，你撒谎了，就像青少年对父母说，你需要承认你撒谎了。而对方则说，我没有撒谎，然后他们就试图退缩。我们掌握着真理的火炬。不，我们掌握着真理的火炬。当然，双方都有一些真实的成分。是的，是的。但在这种情况下，我认为在极端情况下，我们都理解谋杀是不对的，对吧？是的，是的。撒谎、欺骗、偷窃都是不对的，对吧？但对一个群体来说，什么构成道德上的追求，可能对另一个群体来说就是道德上的侮辱，反之亦然。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

And then the general components of the general public are saying, actually, during the pandemic, you lied, you know, like a teenager telling their end, like, you need to admit you lied. And then they're like, I didn't lie, you know, and so they're just trying to pull back. We have the torch of truth. No, we have the torch of truth. And of course, there are elements of truth on both sides. Yeah, yeah. But with this, in this case, it's sort of, I think at the extremes, we all understand murder is bad, right? Yeah, yeah. Lying, cheating, stealing, bad, right? But then what constitutes a moral aspiration to one camp is actually a moral insult. Right. And vice versa.

那么，约翰·海特，你曾邀请他上过节目，对吗？是的。约翰·海特很出色。我们之间的渊源可以追溯到21世纪初。约翰·海特和我年龄相仿，我们的职业生涯也有些相似，都在研究人类幸福的迹象。他真的是个有远见的人，可能是我们这一代最杰出的社会科学家。哇，他真是不可思议。他写了一本关于道德基础的书，书中提到，每个人共有的两大道德基础就是关爱和公平，即对他人的关心和公正。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

So John Height, you've had him on the show, right? Yes. Yeah, John Height's great. And John Height and I go way back. We go back to the early part of the 21st century. So, and John Height and I are just the same age, and we've had these sort of parallel careers writing about signs of human happiness. The guy's a visionary. He's probably the greatest social scientist of our generation. Wow. He's that great. I mean, he's unbelievable. He wrote a book about moral foundations, and he talked about the fact that there are two moral foundations that everybody has in common, and that's care and fairness. Care for others and fairness.

现在，我们用不同的方式来定义这些东西。我的意思是，关爱到底是什么意思？关爱是指在基本层面上照顾每个人，还是意味着每个人都能获得一套公寓和免费食品？这个定义需要自己去思考和理解。这是一个关于意义的合理辩论。公平的概念也非常不同，尤其在政治领域。一方主张的是再分配的公平，而另一方强调的是基于才能的公平，所以什么是公平存在很多不同看法。但每个人都希望建立一个公平和关爱的社会，而且你也相信，作为父母应该公平对待孩子、关爱孩子。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

Now, we define those things differently. I mean, what does care mean? Does the care mean giving everybody, you know, taking care of them at the base level, or does it mean everybody gets an apartment and free groceries? I mean, you figure out what that means. And that's a legitimate argument about, you know, what it means. Fairness is really, really different, especially between political polls, where one side is about redistributive fairness, and the other side is about meritocratic fairness, you know, what fairness actually means. But everybody wants a fair and caring society, and you believe that you should be fair as a parent, you should care for your kids.

他通过研究实证展示的内容，无疑有着强大的神经生物学基础，我确信也有很大的基因基础，因为这些性格特征一般都有这种基础。在同卵双胞胎的研究中，各种性格方面通常有40%到80%是由遗传决定，这本身就非常有趣。他指出道德的三个元素在政治立场的两极之间是非常不同的，它们是忠诚、纯洁和权威。因此，忠诚就好比认为焚烧国旗是不对的。我来自一个政治上大多是进步主义的家庭。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

Then what he shows empirically with his work, which no doubt has a huge neurobiological basis, and I'm sure has a huge genetic basis as well, because these personality characteristics generally do, or usually between, in the identical twin studies, it's usually 40% to 80% genetic, all the aspects of personality, which is super interesting in and of itself. Is that there's three elements of morality that are very different between the political poles. They are loyalty, purity, and authority. And so loyalty is like, flag burning is bad, right? You know, I come from a very mostly progressive family, politically progressive family.

如果我问我的家人关于烧国旗的看法，他们可能会说“不太合适”，而不是认为这是“道德上的邪恶”。这是一种温和的回答，对吧？同时，另一个方面是关于忠诚，忠诚于自己的群体。你会发现，政治上偏保守的人对忠诚的理解有所不同，他们更倾向于对体育团队的忠诚。有趣的研究表明，当你走进一个政治保守派的办公室时，你会发现里面有一个体育海报，而在政治自由派的办公室里，这种情况就不太常见。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

And if I asked somebody, you know, from my family of origin, what do you think about flag burning? They'd be like, inadvisable, right? As opposed to morally evil. Right, soft answer. Yeah, when it comes, right? And the second is loyalty, you know, loyalty to tribe. And what you find is that people who are more on the politically conservative side, they have a different sense of loyalty, loyalty towards sports teams. So you find that when you, in these interesting studies, that you go into a political conservative's office, and you'll find like a sports poster, where in a political liberal's office, you're very, very much less likely to find this, is what you find.

当然，这一点的关键在于民族认同，也就是你效忠于国家的那种心态，就像“无论对错，我的国家就是我的国家”。这也是为什么在美国军队中，你会发现政治立场有明显的偏向性原因之一。这并不是说哪一方对或错，而是事实就是如此。约翰·海特会说，这是道德基础的差异所导致的。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

And then, of course, this, where it really has teeth is toward, you know, national identity, you know, where you're loyal toward national, it's like, my country, right or wrong. Which is one of the reasons you find such a strong political preponderance of one side in the military forces, in the American military, as opposed to the other. Not to say that one side's right or wrong, but that's just, you know, how it comes down. John Haidt would say that's a difference in moral foundations.

你刚刚提到的最后一个方面是纯洁性，这里指的是道德纯洁性。在性方面的道德纯洁性尤其深刻。我曾在旧金山看到过一张贴纸，上面写着：“你的身体可能是座庙宇，而我的却是个游乐园。”这句话从某种角度来说很有趣。不过从根本上讲，这种观点反映了旧金山特有的一种文化态度，从70年代到现在都很常见。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

And the last that you were really touching on here is purity. It's moral purity. And the moral purity is about, for example, in sexual matters, is very, very profound. You know, and so, you know, there's a, you know, I've seen a bumper sticker in San Francisco that says, your body may be a temple, but mine is an amusement park. Right? It's funny in its way, right? But what that is basically saying is… It's very, what I would call, because I'm from the Bay Area, sort of older San Francisco, like circa 70s to now.

现在在科技界有一种保守主义运动正在发展，尽管其中还夹杂着各种不同的观点。这种趋势有点像是自由主义和放纵主义的分叉，这是一个非常有趣的界限。实际上，这描述了它们之间的区别。不同阵营的人可能会认为对方是不道德的，但其实只是道德观不同。你需要自己判断哪个更符合你的看法。如果你在一个结构化的调查中告诉我你对特定问题的看法，我几乎可以非常确定地猜出你的投票倾向。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

Now there's a kind of a growing conservative movement, somewhat tucked into the tech community, although you find a mix of both. You find a mix of both, too. But it's kind of a libertine thing where libertarianism and libertinism diverge, which is a really interesting boundary, too, is what you find. But that actually describes those differences are, you know, so, you know, each side will say the other side is immoral. No, they're differently moraled. And you decide, you know, which you think is right. And if you tell me in a structured survey what you think is right on those particular issues, I have a very high degree of certitude in guessing how you vote, actually.

现在，有些人的想法很奇怪。你可以在政治上是保守派，但在文化上却是自由派，对吧？这样的人不多，但确实存在。事实上，他们往往是政治上的自由意志主义者。这很有趣，因为在这里，我们实际上是在讨论如何划分大脑不同区域的界限，至少这是我作为神经生物学家所想的。然而，显然，政治、法律和行为非常重要。这真的很重要，因为最终，人们可以对他们相信什么、想成为什么发表各种言论，但我们最终是根据我们的行为来评判的。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

Now, some people are in these weird things. You can be in kind of a, you can be a political conservative, but a cultural liberal, right? Those aren't very many people, but you do find them. They tend to be the political libertarians, as a matter of fact. It's fascinating, because ultimately here we're talking about drawing boundaries between different brain areas, at least that's what the neurobiologist in me thinks. But, I mean, obviously, politics, laws, and behavior matters a lot. It really matters, because ultimately people can say all sorts of things about what they believe, what they want to be, but we are ultimately judged on what we do.

好的。我想我们可能会根据自己的行为来评判自己，或者理想情况下，我们会关注这一点。我们已经讨论了一个宏量营养素。对，一个宏量营养素。您建议学生做哪些练习，以开始探索他们自身的动物本能和道德理想之间的关系？是的，我谈论的一个内容是他们如何理解闲暇。闲暇指的是你在不被补偿的情况下所做的事情，即真正自由的时间。你是如何理解闲暇的。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

Right. And I think we probably judge ourselves on the basis of what we do, or ideally we would look at that. Let's talk a little bit about. We've gotten through one macronutrient. Right, one macronutrient. What exercises do you suggest to students to start to explore their own relationship between animal impulse and moral aspiration? Yeah, so one of the things that I talk about is how they understand leisure. So leisure is what you do, and they're not compensating you for in the time that's actually free. How you understand leisure.

因此，关于这个主题最伟大的作家之一是约瑟夫·皮珀，一位20世纪中叶的德国哲学家。他最重要的著作是《闲暇：文化的基础》。这本书对思想影响深远，实际上是一篇很长的随笔，非常美丽。他指出，人们利用闲暇时间的方式可以揭示一切关于一个文化所需的信息。他并不关心你如何赚钱，而是想知道当没有人付给你报酬时，你如何度过时间。因为他说，这正是反映你真实自我的东西。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

So, and the greatest writer about this is Josef Pieper, the mid-20th century German philosopher. His most important book was Leisure, the Basis of Culture. That's his most inflecting. It's actually a long essay. It's very, very beautiful. He says, I can tell you everything you need to know about a culture by how they actually use leisure. Interesting. He doesn't want to know what you do for money. He wants to know how you use your time when nobody's paying you. That's because he says that's what reflects who you actually are.

这就是为什么我从来不喜欢那种“你可以通过某人书架上的书来了解他们”的说法。因为书架上的书并不意味着他们真的读过那些书，只是说明他们拥有这些书。对，没错。很多人拥有我的书却没有读过。不过，我花了一些时间在这本书上，但我还需要再仔细阅读。我非常期待能读到《Protocols》哦。哦，谢谢。至少，《Protocols》能治失眠，因为这本书差不多有600页。谢谢，你的书很棒，我花了一些时间在上面。我想多花些时间在它上面，部分原因是它将理论和实际步骤以及提示结合在一起。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

That's why I never liked the, oh, you can tell by the books on somebody's shelf. Because books on somebody's shelf doesn't mean they actually read those books. Because they own those books. Right, exactly. Many people own my books who haven't read them. Well, I've spent some time with it. I still need to pour through it again. Can't wait to read protocols, by the way. Oh, thanks. If nothing else, protocols will cure insomnia. The thing is almost 600 pages long. Thank you. Your book's awesome, and I spend some time with it. I want to spend more time with it, in part because it marries theory with practical steps and prompts.

这不是关于人工智能的提示，而是关于我们真正给自己的提示。因此，关于休闲这个主题是非常有趣的。是的，休闲确实很有意思。它不仅能告诉你关于一个文化的信息，还能以某种方式揭示一个人的特质。如果你发现某人把休闲时间用来满足基本的欲望，那是一种情况。但如果他们实际上用它来提升自我，为了个人的成长，而不是为了职业的提升或物质的报酬，也不是追求金钱、权力、享乐或荣誉这四种世俗回报，那就是另一种情况。这种观念可以追溯到亚里士多德和阿奎那等哲学家的思想中。如果你正在做的事情没有为你在这些领域带来回报，那么你就是在进行他们所谓的“真正的休闲”，是在追求道德上的向往，而这最终是一种最令人满足的事物。它能把你从单纯的享乐世界带入更深层次的享受，给予你更大的幸福感。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

Not AI prompts, but the kind of prompts you really give oneself. So this thing about leisure is fascinating. Yeah, leisure is really interesting. It's like that tells you what you need to know about a culture, but also about a person in a way. And so if you find somebody who's using the leisure time to meet animal appetites, that's one thing. If they're actually using it for personal betterment, for personal betterment, not career betterment, not for the compensation. It actually comes from the worldly rewards. There's four worldly rewards, money, power, pleasure, and honor. And if you're doing something such that it doesn't reward you in one of those areas, that actually comes from Aristotle and Aquinas, et cetera. Then you're actually doing what he would call proper leisure. You're doing proper leisure toward, you know, moral aspiration, which is ultimately the most rewarding thing. That's ultimately what will take you from the world of pleasure into the world of enjoyment and give you greater happiness.

这是理论，事实上这些想法已经被反复验证过。最好的问题来自哲学家，结构性机制源于神经科学，至于这些想法的测试则由行为科学来完成，比如实验之类。当然，将这些理论应用到生活中是另一回事。他说，有三个领域构成了真正的休闲和终极享受。想要我告诉你吗？当然。第一，是有意识地加深关系。我的意思是，有意识地。所以，这个周末的休闲活动，我想象着自己在陪伴妻子的时候不碰手机，专注于加深与她的关系，完全投入地陪伴她。我去某地，不是因为我想在海滩上放松，而是因为我想和我爱的人一起在海滩上。有意识地、专注地加深关系。第二，是学习一些你不需要学的东西。第三，事实上，是在形而上学上发展自己，包括你的精神生活、宗教生活或哲学生活。要超越眼前的一切，仅仅因为你追求这种超越。这三个领域构成了真正的休闲。他会说，我知道你在从简单的快乐转向更深层次的享受，这是我通过你的行动知道的，即使你本不需要这样做。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

That's the theory. And it's actually been verified a lot in a lot of these ideas. The best questions, they come from the philosophers. And then the structural mechanisms come from neuroscience. And then the testing of these ideas comes from the behavioral sciences, right, the experiments, et cetera. Then, of course, applying them to your life is a different kettle of fish. And so what he says is that there's kind of three areas that make proper leisure and ultimate enjoyment. Want me to tell you that? Please. Yeah. Number one is deepening relationships on purpose, man. I mean, on purpose. And so leisure is this weekend I'm envisioning myself not touching my phone while I'm with my wife, right, deepening my relationship, being fully present for my wife. And I'm going to go someplace not because I want to chill on the beach, but because I want to be on the beach with the love of my life. So deepening relationships on purpose with, you know, a real focus on that. The second is learning something you don't need to learn. And the third is actually developing yourself metaphysically. Is your spiritual, your religious life, or your philosophical life. Is to transcend what's going on here. For no other reason than the fact that you seek transcendence. Those are the three areas of proper leisure. And that's how he would say, I know that you're going from pleasure to enjoyment. That's how I know based on what you're doing, even though you don't have to.

我爱这个。让我来告诉你几个我喜欢它的原因。有时候，人们会问我：你做什么事情来娱乐？这个问题对我来说很难回答。因为我的工作本身就是一种乐趣。我的工作实在是太有趣了。比如我正在读一本关于阳光的书，书中讲述了皮肤病学界如何重新理解阳光与皮肤癌的关系，我对此非常着迷。我热爱我的工作，我可以列举许多类似的事情。我这样说，是为了让人们思考他们自己喜欢做什么。但是有一个词经常在我脑海中浮现，因为“娱乐”这个概念对我来说不太容易界定。虽然我确实做一些纯粹消遣的事情，不过更贴切的词是“充实”。这听起来有点像某种学术用语，比如说“你做什么来充实自己？”这不像“你做什么来娱乐？”那样自然。但这样的提问稍微改变了视角。因为暗示着不仅仅是关于即时的快乐，而“娱乐”往往指的是愉悦。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

I love this. I'll tell you several of the reasons why I love it. One is people from time to time will say, what do you do for fun? It's a very difficult question for me to answer. Because your work is fun, by the way. My work is so much fun. I know. Like I'm reading this book about sunlight and how the dermatology world is revising their understanding about sun and skin cancer. And I'm loving that. I love my, I mean, I could list it off. Whatever, I just say those things to just get people to think about what they enjoy doing. But the word that, you know, keeps coming up in my mind because I have a hard time with the fun thing. Because, yeah, I do other things that are purely recreational. Is this word enrichment. I mean, it sounds kind of, you know, like somebody is trying to be an academic when they say, like, what do you do for enrichment? It's not as natural a question these days as, like, what do you do for fun? It's like, what do you do for your own enrichment? It reshapes the question a little bit. Because the implication is it's not just about immediate pleasure, which fun kind of falls into the groove of pleasure.

这段话谈论的是个人卓越。是的，就好像经历过某项活动后，你不仅仅因为体验过这件事情而变得更好，而是这种经历会在你做其他事情时带来积极的影响。因此，“充实”这个词让人觉得很美好。这就是为什么即使我本科时学习的是科学，但我还是决定选修了希腊神话课程，并且非常热爱它，非常非常热爱。那段时间是闲暇时光，但多年后，却发现它和神经科学也有关系。比如，我们讨论独眼巨人的神话，这都是关于愤怒的，而且涉及到有一只眼和有两只眼时深度感知的差异。没想到，古希腊人真的理解立体视觉和深度感知。不由得想起这些了。无论如何，这是很有趣的。所以，我非常喜欢你提到的去海边的例子，不仅是因为你想要待在那里，而是因为你实际上在那里，这为创造其他的东西提供了实实在在的基础。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

It's about personal excellence. Yeah, like you come out of it better, not just for having experienced whatever it was the activity was. But, like, there's something carried forward into other things that you do and in a good way. And so the word enrichment, you know, feels good. It's the reason why, even though I was in the sciences as an undergraduate, I, you know, decided to take a course in Greek mythology and, like, loved it, loved, loved, loved it. That was leisure. And it turns out it was neuroscience, too, right, you know, years later, like, we talk about, you know, the myth of the Cyclops is all about anger. And it has everything to do with the lack of depth perception that when you have one eye versus two eyes. It turns out, like, the Greeks, like, really understood stereopsis and depth perception. There, I couldn't help myself. In any case. That's interesting. So, like, this notion of enrichment, and I love that in the example you gave of going to the beach with a friend or with a spouse or someone else you care about, it's not about your own experience of it. You said because, not just because you want to be there, but because you're actually there, that's a physical grounds for creating something else.

所以，这并不是真的关于海滩，而是关于你从海滩带走了什么。没错，这不仅仅是对海滩的回忆。因为在那里，你们之间的关系可能会发生变化，也许是小的改变，也许是大的改变，但这种经历丰富了你们的关系。所以，海滩本身反而变得不那么重要了。当人们谈论想要出去喝酒时，我想知道的是真的是关于喝酒，还是关于和你一起喝酒的人。这才是关键所在。现在，我强烈建议大家重新考虑这个决定。我的意思是，我听说过，每周喝两杯是安全的。我明白了，安德鲁，我知道了。是的，对于大多数人来说，喝太多可能不是个好主意。而我甚至一点酒都不喝，因为这对我的生活节奏是最合适的。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

So, it's not really about the beach. It's about what you leave the beach with. That's right. And it's not just memories of the beach. You actually both change as a consequence of being there, maybe in small ways, maybe in big ways. But you've enriched the relationship. And so, the beach becomes incidental. When people talk about wanting to go out drinking, what I want to know is, is it about the drinking or is it the people you're drinking with? That's what it comes down to. Now, I strongly recommend that people reconsider that decision. I mean, I've heard you. Two drinks a week is the safe level. I've got it, Andrew. I've got it. Yeah, more than that's probably not a good idea for most people. I'm at zero. You know, I'm a non-drinker because it's the right cadence for my life.

但是，你知道，有些人能够负责任地饮酒，而我不是。我多希望自己是能够负责任饮酒的人，但我不是，对吧？所以我不喝酒，一点也不喝。不过，当人们说要出去喝酒时，我不知道那是为了快乐享受，还是出于动物本能或道德追求。我需要更多的信息，我需要知道这么做的原因。当人们谈论要买个海边度假屋时，我不知道这是否是出于对社会比较的动物本能，还是仅仅为了能在“得分板”上有所体现，让自己觉得有价值。这些都是动物本能。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

But, you know, people who do use alcohol responsibly, I'm not. I wish I were a person who could use alcohol responsibly. I'm not, right? So, I don't. And I don't use it at all. But, you know, when people say I'm going to go out drinking, I mean, I don't know if that's pleasure or enjoyment. I don't know if that's animal impulse or moral aspiration. I need more information. I need to know the reason for that. When people are talking about getting a beach house, I'm going to get a beach house. I don't know whether or not that's animal impulse towards social comparison, toward actually a scoreboard effect so I can actually feel like I mean something. That's all animal impulse.

这句话的意思是，我们的大脑有时会想，除非我们像办公室的老比尔那样拥有一栋海滩别墅，否则就不够好。但如果你告诉我你想为子孙创造一个能让他们常来的地方，那我就会认真听，开始真正关注。很多时候，人们说的话需要更多信息来帮助我正确分类：到底是属于动物的冲动，还是道德的追求；是追求瞬间的愉悦，还是长期的享受；以及这是否真的能带来幸福。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

All it is, that's just like your troglodyte brain actually saying you're not good enough unless you have a beach house like old Bill over there at the office. Right? But on the other hand, if you tell me it's like I got to create bait so that my kids and grandkids are here a lot. Okay, now I'm listening. Now I'm actually paying attention. And so, a lot of things that people will say, I need a little bit more information such that I can categorize it in the right way. Whether or not we're on the right side, we're on the animal impulse side or the moral aspiration side. Whether we're on the pleasure side or the enjoyment side. Whether it's actually going to bring happiness.

我停顿了一下，因为对这个有很多疑问，但我想确保我们能够讨论其他宏量营养素。否则，我可能会让你来讲解如何在我的生活中以及听众的生活中最大化每一个选择。享受协议。是的。我们应该有休闲协议。绝对的。我们都知道，社交和人际关系是一个重要的支柱之一。但把休闲作为丰富关系的基础来说，这个想法一旦我们听到就显而易见，但它会改变我们看待一切的方式。例如，与别人一起锻炼可能会让你们关系更加深厚——坦白说，这其实是我与很多男性朋友相处时的真实体验。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

I'm pausing because I have so many questions about this, but I want to make sure we touch on the other macronutrients. Because otherwise, I'm going to encourage you to give a tutorial on how to really maximize every single choice in not just my life, but listeners' lives. Enjoyment protocols. Yeah. We should have leisure protocols. Absolutely. You know, we all know that like one of the major pillars is social connection and relationships. But the idea that leisure is part of that as a substrate for enriching those is obvious once we hear it, but it reframes everything. If exercising with somebody, you know, it turns out to be a way you deepen the relationship, which actually has been my experience with a lot of male friends, frankly.

是的，完全同意。根据我的经验，最好的方式之一了解一个人，就是和他们进行一次深入的智力对话，或者一起做一些有挑战的事情。是的，是的，我的制作人兼亲密朋友 Rob 现在就坐在我左边。记得我们第一次见面做的事情之一就是一起跑步，他把我跑得不行。而且，顺便说一句，他是范德堡大学的毕业生。看到这个我感到非常满意，非常非常非常满意。是的，是的。我不推荐大家去打拳击，但多年前我曾打过，每周三晚上都会去对练。不过我不建议大家这么做。是的，我戴过头盔，是的，我可能受过一些伤。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

Yeah, totally. One of the best ways to get to know somebody, in my experience, is to have an intellectual conversation with them, like really deep dive with them, or to go do something difficult. Yeah, yeah, Rob, my producer and close, close friend, he's sitting to my left right now. I mean, one of the first things we ever did was like go for a run where he kicked my butt. And by the way, a Vanderbilt graduate. Yeah. Very pleased to see that. Very, very, very, very pleased to see that. Yeah. Yeah. And I don't recommend people box, but years ago I boxed and I'd spar on Wednesday nights. Don't recommend it. Yes, I wore headgear. Yes, I probably took some damage.

我不推荐这样做。但当你与一些人很亲近的时候，你们可能曾经试图伤害对方，但却是在有规则的情况下进行的。这是非常神奇的，也非常原始。然而，这种关系中存在一种显而易见的非语言纽带。这是一种终生的联系。当你下次见到那个人时，尤其是如果他们遵循规则并伤害过你，你会觉得我们彼此了解。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

I don't recommend it. But you feel so close to people that you actually tried to hurt and they tried to hurt you, but with rules. Yeah. And it's an amazing, it's very primitive. Yeah. And yet there's a bond there that is obviously nonverbal. It's a lifelong bond. Yeah. You see that person the next time. Yeah. And it's like, especially if they played fair and they hurt you. Yeah. You're like, yeah. Yeah. Like we know one another.

好的。我见过你，你知道，有一种尊重的感觉。是的。我不是在建议人们这样做，但你通过把人和记忆增加到一种强烈的体验中，使其变得愉快，并成为幸福的一部分。事实上，这并不是纯粹的快感，但这也不是重点。重点是以某种方式一起经历苦难。有一本很棒的书，作者是一个叫做萨姆·谢里丹的人，书名是《战士之心》。他实际上是哈佛毕业的。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

Yeah. I've seen you, you know, there's a respect level. Yeah. I'm not suggesting people do this, but. You added people and memory to a strong experience, thus rendering it enjoyable and being part of happiness. And point of fact, it wasn't strictly pleasurable, but that wasn't exactly the point. No. Yeah. No, the point was to suffer together in some way. There's a great book by a guy named Sam Sheridan called A Fighter's Heart. He's actually a Harvard grad.

好的。我记得他说他在那儿是学艺术的。他爸爸是海豹突击队成员。他是个很有趣的人。他有一个笑话，说训练对打就像一夜情。你和一个几乎不认识的人做了一件非常亲密的事情。因此，这既有一种联系感，但也只是一种联系的假象。他比我形容得更加到位。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

Yeah. I think he was an art major there. His dad was a Navy SEAL. He's a very interesting guy. And he has this joke that, you know, you know, that sparring is like a, it's like a one night stand or something. You've like done something very intimate with someone you barely know. Yeah. And so it has both a feeling of connection, but it's also the illusion of connection. Yeah. So he hits it better than I did.

好的，不要急着出去和朋友切磋。军队为什么能够创造出这么深厚的终生友谊呢？我儿子是美国海军陆战队的一名侦察狙击手。他的朋友们都是生死之交，他们曾在极其危险的情况下彼此照顾，并肩作战，可以为了对方献出生命。他们一起经历磨难。在拉丁语中，“同情”这个词的意思就是共同受苦。与某人同情，就是与那个人一同承受痛苦，词源就是这个意思。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

Yeah. Don't run out and start sparring with your friends. Well, the military, why it has, it creates such, you know, bonds for life. I mean, my son's, my son is a sniper, scout sniper in the U.S. Marine Corps. And these are friends for life. I mean, these are guys who would literally give their lives for each other, who looked out for each other in very, very dangerous situations. And they were suffering together. Now, the word compassion in Latin means to suffer together. That's what it means. To be compassionate with somebody is to suffer alongside that person. That's what it comes from.

这句话的意思是，在基督教中，"基督的受难"讲述的是基督所经历的苦难。怀有同情心就是指与他人一起经历这种苦难。即使这种受难是自愿的，比如彼此进行打斗或者进入八角笼(搏斗比赛场地)，这种行为也依然展示了一种同情经验。这种经历把我们引导至超越动物本能，进入一个道德空间的原始需求。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

And it's, you know, it has this, the passion of Christ in the Christian religion is all about the suffering of Christ. That's what it comes from, and to have compassion towards somebody to suffer with that person through that. And when you even induce that suffering, as dumb as it is, beating each other up, you know, doing, getting into the octagon. And, you know, that is, what you're doing is, this is, this is the experience of compassion, which gets us to our, a primordial need to move beyond the animal impulse into the moral space.

这实际上让我们成为典型的人类，使我们与所有其他生物有根本的不同。这使我们成为主导物种。但同时，这也使我们成为所有物种中最痛苦的一种，这点非常有意思。有一些黑暗而可怕的例子来说明这种情况，有时人们称之为创伤纽带，比如说希德和南希的故事。就像他们是否在切尔西酒店因吸毒成瘾而对彼此下手。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

That actually makes us quintessentially human, that makes us fundamentally different than all the other beings. It makes us the dominant species. But, by the way, it also renders us the most miserable of all these species as well, which is so interesting. There's some dark and terrible examples of this, and sometimes people will call it trauma bonding, like the sort of Sid and Nancy story. Like, do they, like, kill them, kill each other at the Chelsea Hotel in, like, a drug-induced rage?

然后呢，如果你看那部由华金·菲尼克斯和瑞茜·威瑟斯朋主演的精彩电影《与歌同行》，对吧，Johnny Cash和June Carter之间的关系，对，就是June Carter Cash，我想那是她结婚后的名字，他们的关系是充满争议的。那是一种激烈的关系，有争吵和磨砺，他们在挑战中锤炼而成。她在一个离婚不被接受的时代离了婚，而且她是个宗教信徒，所以这之中有很多摩擦。然而，最终他们在携手共度中达到了和谐。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

But then, like, if you watch that great movie with Joaquin Phoenix and Reese Witherspoon, right, like, Walk the Line, like, their relationship between Johnny Cash and June Carter, right, was, June Carter Cash, I think was eventually her married name, was, it was a contentious one. It was like, it was the, it was the feistiness, it was the fighting, like, they were forged in this challenge. She was divorced at a time when divorce wasn't, was really frowned upon, and, and she was religious, and so there was, there was just a lot of contention, and then, then there's this peace that they achieve in being together.

但你总能感觉到一份认同：他们经历过很多艰难，并且一直在奋斗，这是我们过去常常推崇的关系。现在，我们喜欢看到一切都显得完美无瑕。但实际上，这与婚姻誓言和各种关系是息息相关的。关键在于，共同的磨难。我会和我的妻子一起承受这些痛苦，直至生命的最后一刻。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

But you always sense that it's like, that there, that there's this recognition that, that there's fight in them, and they've been through it, and that's part of, like, we tend to, we used to kind of hold up relationships like that. Now we like to see everything look perfectly smooth, right? But this gets back to, like, the marriage vows, and this gets back to relationships of all kinds. It's the suffering. The suffering, the suffering, the suffer with. I'm going to suffer with my wife until I take my dying breath.

这就像是，因为我们有一段关系。她会和你一起承受这些。天哪，没错。关键是你们两人共同面对。是的，没错，确实如此。说清楚一点，绝对没错。我是说，和我这样的人结婚并不是轻而易举的事情，肯定会有烦恼。但这是我们终身的约定。这种关系是核心所在，而且我们也有很多乐趣，这太好了。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

And it's like, because we have a relationship. And she's going to suffer with you. My God, yes. The with is there, the both of you. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. To be clear. No, for sure. I mean, it's no walk in the park being married to me. That's for sure. I mean, it's a pain, for sure. But she will. I mean, this is, like, the bond that we've actually taken for life. And it's central to the, and we have great enjoyment. It's fantastic.

但这种乐趣完全来自于它是令人愉悦的。它有趣、引人入胜、让人发笑，同时也很难。这其中也有很多痛苦，仿佛刀光剑影。我妻子是西班牙人，所以你必须明白，这种关系中有高度的复杂性和痛苦，还有每时每刻都在爆发信息密度极高的语言交流。是的，完全正确。而我们有一个50-50的西班牙语和英语的婚姻，这意味着我们可以在两种语言中体会苦乐。事情的本质就是这样。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

But that enjoyment has everything to do with the fact that it's pleasurable. It's interesting, it's fascinating, it's funny, and it's also hard. And it's also, there's a lot of suffering. And there's a lot of, it's daggers drawn. I mean, my wife is Spanish, so you have to understand that there's a high level of complexity and suffering, you know. And words per, word density per moment. Yeah, exactly right. And we have a 50-50 Spanish and English marriage, which means that we can, you know, we can suffer in, you know, two languages. It's what it comes down to.

但事实是，你知道的，这就是人们需要预料到的。你知道的，人们需要预料这样的事情，就像是，好吧，让我们一起面对吧，宝贝。来吧，亲爱的，让我们迎接它。这是一件美好的事情，这就是它的真正含义。很多人谈论和平与安逸作为目标。是的，我听到了其中的一些，但我也听到了很多其他东西。我明白了。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

But the truth is, you know, that's what people need to expect. You know, that's what people need to expect, that it's like, okay, let's suffer together, baby. Come on, honey, let's just, let's just bring it on. And that's a beautiful thing. That's really what it means. And people talk so much about peace and ease as the goal. Yeah. I'm not, I'm hearing some of that, but I'm hearing a bunch of other things too here. I get it.

特别是对于男性来说，他们非常希望家庭能保持和谐。我观察到确实如此。当然，女性也希望家庭和睦。但实际上，不可能一直都有平静的生活，你也不希望总是那么平静。你想要的是充实而完整的生活，活得有活力。这意味着你会体验各种情绪，充分使用你的情感系统。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

And it's particularly true that men, they want peace at home. They do want peace at home. And I see that. By the way, women want peace at home too. But you're not going to get peace all the time. You don't want peace all the time. You want a full life, fully lived. You want to be, it's like the, to be fully alive. What does that mean? That means the whole range of your emotions. You're using all the parts of your limbic system.

安德鲁，我们的构造真是奇妙。我希望在感受到社会排斥或失落的时候，背侧前扣带回皮层给我带来痛苦和悲伤的感觉。我希望岛叶在我感到厌恶的时候高度活跃，不论厌恶的对象是什么；我希望在恐惧和愤怒时，杏仁核活跃。我想要这样，我希望我的大脑能够按照它本该有的方式运作。我想要去经历痛苦，因为如果我想要真正地活着，想要抓住机会，做我该做的事情，这些都是必不可少的。这是对人类幸福的一种完整理解，包含在全方位的体验中。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

We're wonderfully made, Andrew. And it's just like, I want the dorsal anterior cingulate cortex to give me this sense of suffering and grief when I'm feeling social exclusion or the sense of loss. You know, I want the insula to be highly active when I have this sense of disgust of whatever it happens to be, or the amygdala to be active with fear and anger, et cetera. I want that. I want my brain to work the way it's actually supposed to. I mean, I want to suffer and I'm gonna, if I'm actually being fully alive and if I'm taking the chances and I'm doing the things that I actually need to do, because that is ingrained in the full experience of what human happiness is properly understood.

我想稍作休息，感谢我们的赞助商AG1。AG1刚刚推出了他们最新的配方AG1 Pro。现在，你可以获得首个订阅额外20%的折扣。AG1采用的是临床支持的AG1配方，这是一种由维生素、矿物质、益生菌和适应原混合而成的配方，并添加了三种重要的新成分：肌酸一水合物、钙HMB和锌肌肽。它含有5克肌酸一水合物，以支持肌肉力量、表现和大脑健康；钙HMB可以帮助肌肉恢复并减少肌肉分解；锌肌肽则有助于改善肠道内壁健康。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, AG1. AG1 just launched their newest formulation called AG1 Pro. And right now you can get an extra 20% off your first subscription. AG1 takes the clinically backed AG1 formula, which is a blend of vitamins, minerals, probiotics, and adaptogens, and adds three important new ingredients, creatine monohydrate, calcium HMB, and zinc carnosine. It has five grams of creatine monohydrate to support muscle strength and performance along with brain health, calcium HMB to support muscle recovery and reduce muscle breakdown, and zinc carnosine to support and improve the lining of your gut.

其中一些成分我个人之前就已经在AG1配方之外单独服用了。所以，现在看到它们都加入到新的AG1 Pro中，真是太好了。你可能知道，我每天都在服用AG1，已经有大约14年了。这意味着我在很久之前、甚至还不知道什么是播客的时候，就发现并开始每天服用了。我继续服用AG1，并在播客中推荐它，因为它是一个非常优秀的配方，现在随着AG1 Pro配方的推出，更加出色了。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

Some of these ingredients I personally was already taking separate from the AG1 formula. So it's great to see all three of them now in the new AG1 Pro. As you may know, I've been taking AG1 every single day for about 14 years now. That means I discovered it and started taking it daily long before I even knew what a podcast was. I continue to take it and back it here on the podcast because it is an excellent formula and it's now even better with the AG1 Pro formula.

限时优惠：现在访问 drinkag1.com/Huberman 并使用代码 "back2routine"（就是数字2，back数字2routine），可以在首次订阅AG1 Pro时享受额外20%的折扣。只需访问 drinkag1.com/Huberman 即可。也许我们可以一起写这本书的第二章，不过你才是真正的作家，我承认自己还没决定我是不是个作家。你真的很擅长你的工作，伙计。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

For a limited time, you can get an extra 20% off your first subscription to AG1 Pro by going to drinkag1.com slash Huberman and using the code back to routine. So that's what the numeral two, back numeral two routine. Just go to drinkag1.com slash Huberman. So we have the second chapter in the book that maybe we write together. Although you're the real writer, I confess I've yet to decide I'm a writer. You're good at what you do, man.

哦，谢谢。我很感激。其中一章将讨论休闲。是的，你告诉过我们，人们如何度过闲暇时间是了解自我的一个重要窗口。另一章将讨论如何更好地面对痛苦。是的，这与追求道德目标有关，同时也探讨如何在追求道德目标时体验快乐。没错，绝对是这样的。所以我们已经解决了享受这个方面。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

Oh, thanks. I appreciate it. One chapter will be on leisure. Yeah. You've told us that how one spends their leisure time is a critical window into self. And the other would be how to suffer more. Yeah. In pursuit of moral aspiration, but also how to experience pleasure in pursuit of moral aspiration. For sure. Absolutely. Absolutely. So we've gotten through enjoyment.

好的，我们来谈谈满足感吧。听起来和其他东西相似，但它更深刻、更广泛，而且我无法明确定义满足感。我的意思是，一切都在于定义。一个关于幸福的问题是，每个人对它的定义都不同，各有各的观点。因此，我尽量避免陷入语言上的争论。就像意识这个概念一样。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

Yeah. Let's talk about satisfaction. Yeah. Because it sounds similar, but it sounds like deeper, more pervasive, more like an, I don't define a satisfaction. Yeah. So, I mean, again, and the definition, everything is in the definitions. And one of the problems with happiness is that everybody can, they define it in different ways and et cetera. So I try to stay out of the linguistic wars. It's like consciousness.

好的。没有神经科学家真的愿意再谈论意识这个话题，因为它太循环了。确实。是的，绝对是这样。意识就是意识到你意识到自己有意识，因为你有意识，或者什么的。什么？这涉及到很多亿美元和欧元，特别是在开玩笑说某位瑞士科学家。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

Yeah. No neuroscientist really wants to talk about consciousness anymore because it's like, it's so circular. For sure. Yeah. Absolutely. It's being awareness, being aware of the fact that you're aware because you're aware or something. What? Many billions of dollars and euros in particular. That's a joke aimed at one Swiss scientist in particular.

你已经读过迈克尔·波伦的新书了。我还没读过那本新书，书名是《世界在等待》。不过我非常欣赏他，他很出色。实际上，这本新书是为那些不是哲学家、神经科学家，甚至心理学家的人准备的。书名叫《世界在等待》。我虽然从未见过他，但我非常喜欢这本书，觉得它极其精彩。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

You've read Michael Pollan's new book. I haven't read the new one. The World Awaits. But I think the world of him. He's fantastic. And the new book is actually the book to read for people who are not either, you know, philosophers or neuroscientists or even psychologists for that matter on A World Awaits is what it's called. I really, I've never met him, but I love the book. I think it's absolutely fantastic.

在读完这本书后，你了解了很多东西，但仍然不明白意识到底是什么。你不明白它是什么。它包含很多方面。它是知觉，是情感，是对他人的意识，也是对自我的意识。我们不知道它在大脑的哪个部位。而且，天哪，不过说实话，这也是我在这个领域中遇到的一个问题，就是术语的定义。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

And at the end of the book, you know a lot more and you still don't understand what consciousness is. You don't understand what it is. It's a lot of things. It's many things. It's sentience and it's feelings and it's awareness of others and it's awareness of yourself. And we don't know where it is in the brain. And oh my goodness. But the truth is that that's one of the problems in the field that I have too, which is the definition of terms.

满意感就是这样的东西之一。我认为的满意感，和许多人认为的一样，是指经过努力奋斗后取得成就所带来的喜悦。这就是满意感。所以你从博士学位中获得的满意感是与你为获得博士学位所经历的艰难成正比的，我的也是。虽然会想"天哪，我再也不想经历那种过程了"，但同时也会觉得那段经历真是太棒了。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

And satisfaction is one of these things. Satisfaction as I define it, as many people define it, is the joy that you get from an accomplishment after struggle. That's satisfaction. So the satisfaction that you got from your PhD was proportionate to the suffering that actually went into getting your PhD and mine too, right? And they're like, oh man, I'm not doing that again. But it was so awesome.

你知道，我一直在想——这真的太棒了。是的，这些是关键字。我知道。我和我的孩子们聊过，他们在军队里。我是说，成为海军陆战队员不是闹着玩的。我看到了我的孩子们经历的那些，比如步兵训练营和侦察狙击手的培训。我女儿是个军官，她第一次受到敬礼竟然是她哥哥给的。他身高6英尺5英寸，而她只有4英尺11英寸。太精彩了，你知道，其实是你哥哥要向你敬礼。这太酷了，真是太棒了。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

And you know, I think about- But it was so awesome. Yeah. Those are the key words. I know. And it's like I talked to, you know, my kids, my kids in the military. I mean, being a Marine is no, you're not screwing around. And, you know, I saw what my kids went through and, you know, the infantry training battalion and the scout sniper indoctrination. And my daughter is, you know, and she's an officer. She actually got her first salute from her brother. He's 6'5 and she's 4'11. It was awesome. You know, actually, your older brother has to salute you. It's great. So cool. Yeah, it's great.

你知道，当我说"告诉我你的成功故事"时，人们总是议论纷纷，甚至有些人觉得这很搞笑。你还记得大卫·科赫吗，他是科赫兄弟之一，来自堪萨斯州威奇托的科赫工业。他是个非常幽默的人。他常常说：有人问我，你是怎么变得这么富有的？我就说，这要从我12岁的时候说起。那时我找到一个苹果，擦亮了它，我花了5分钱买的，然后有人出10分钱买它。我说，这可是100%的利润。所以我又去买了两个苹果，翻倍了我的钱。我每天、每周都这样做，不断翻倍我的钱。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

But, you know, people talk when I say, you know, tell me the story of your success. I mean, the people make jokes about it. You remember David Koch, one of the Koch brothers, you know, of Koch Industries in Wichita, Kansas. And he was a very, very funny guy. And he used to say, people say, how did you get so rich? And I say, well, it started when I was 12 years old. And I found an apple and I was shining it up and I had paid a nickel for it. And somebody offered me a dime. And I said, well, it's a 100% profit margin. So I went back and bought two apples and I doubled my money. And I started doing this every day and every week, doubling my money and doubling my money.

你可以年复一年、周而复始地进行计算。最后，我父亲去世，留给我一亿美元。这听起来不错。这段话之所以有趣，是因为它触动了大脑中的旁海马回，让你感受到每一个笑话中的那种惊喜。然而，它之所以有趣，是因为真正的满足感来自于奋斗，而不是掌声。因为那样的成就感是你自己努力得来的，人类天生就是为了通过努力获得成功。这也是为什么即使有人给予他们非常丰厚的馈赠，他们也会说服自己以为是自己某种方式赢得的。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

And you can do the math week after week and year after year. And finally, my father died, left me $100 million. That's good. And the reason that that's funny is because that flicks the parahippocampal gyrus. And it makes you feel like that surprise, like in every joke. But the reason it's funny is because real satisfaction from your accomplishments comes from the struggle, not from the accolades. That's what it really comes to because you earned it and human beings are made to earn their success. This is the reason that they'll convince themselves that when somebody's giving them absolute utter largesse, that they actually earned it in some way.

如果你想政治生涯毁于一旦，那就去一群老年人面前告诉他们，你从社保中获得的比你缴纳的多得多。你的职业生涯就完蛋了，因为你基本上是以一种非常不愉快的方式触动了他们的敏感神经。这就好比你直接狠狠地踢了他们一脚，太厉害了，我可不喜欢这样。事实上，他之所以这么说，是因为大家期望听到的是："我经历了很多苦难，破产了三次，差点婚姻破裂，还不得不动用孩子的大学基金"。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

If you want to get to have your career destroyed as a politician, go to a bunch of senior citizens and tell them you're getting a lot back, more back from Social Security than you ever paid in. Your career is over because you basically just, you know, flicked their parahippocampal gyrus in a very unpleasant way. You kicked it, right? So cool. And I don't like it. And so the truth of the matter is that he was saying that because the answer that people are expecting is I suffered and I had three bankruptcies and, you know, I almost lost my marriage and I had to raid my kid's college fund.

我感到害怕，你知道吗，就像伯尼·马库斯谈到家得宝时提到的情况一样，他们的资金几乎用完了，形势非常严峻，这是他描述的情况。所以这真的非常重要。这也是为什么满足感如此重要的原因之一。我们必须取得进展，因为我们的天性导致在没有进展时感到沮丧，而朝着目标迈进正是我们人类的本能。生活的目标来自于设定目标和前进的方向，朝着目标不断努力就是我们生活目的的来源所在。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

And I was afraid, you know, like Bernie Marcus talks about the Home Depot and they were down there at the last dollar and it was, and it was, it was grim is how he talked about it. And so that's really, really important. And that's one of the reasons that satisfaction, which is so important, you know, we got to make progress. Why our rival leads to frustration, but progress toward goals is what, is how we're wired. Purpose in life comes from goals and direction and progress called toward purpose and goals. That's what purpose, where our purpose in life actually comes from.

因此，我们需要有一种感觉：我们正在为某件事情牺牲，而这件事情比我们自身更加重要。我们愿意放弃一些东西。这实际上是最大的秘密之一。这也是为什么当人们达到目标时，他们常常感到沮丧的原因。因为他们已经没有进步的空间了。这也是为什么奥运会运动员在赢得金牌后容易陷入抑郁的原因。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

And so the result of it is that we need to, to have this sense that we're, we're sacrificing for something, that we're doing something that, that's bigger than who we are. We're willing to give something up. That's really one of the great secrets. It's one of the reasons also that when people hit their goals, they get so depressed. It's because there's no more progress. You know, it's why Olympic athletes are so likely to fall into a clinical depression after they win their, their, you know, their gold medal.

我的人就是这样，当他们赢得十亿美元时，他们会说，我想我还需要再来一个十亿。我想我需要，因为我并没有真正感受到满足，因为我们其实是为了这一进步而存在的。但这种进步需要奋斗。我们会对学生进行评判，我的学生们如果在考试中作弊，是不会感到满足的。但如果他们努力学习并取得了一个A，那就非常令人满意。你也会这样教育你的孩子，不要在晚餐前吃东西。这样做不是为了营养，而是为了让他们大脑中可塑的神经通路记住，如果他们在饿的时候来吃晚餐，晚餐会更美味。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

And my people are so, when they win a billion dollars, they're like, I guess I need another billion. I guess I need, you know, because I don't, I'm not feeling it, man, because we're, we're actually made for this progress. But the progress entails a struggle. And we, we judge your students, my students. There's no satisfaction that comes if they cheat on an exam. But if they work hard and get an A, that's very, very satisfying. And you teach your kids this, don't eat before dinner. It's not because of nutrition. It's because you want their synaptically plastic little brains to register the fact that, that if they come to dinner hungry, dinner's better.

你告诉小孩不要在晚饭前吃东西，因为那不健康。但如果你诚实一点，你会说，我就是想让你忍耐，所以你不能吃零食。几年前，我在网上经常讨论说，未经过努力就获得的多巴胺是很有害的，而我对此的立场没有改变。但有些人过度解读了这点，并试图抹黑我，不过这没关系，公开讲话总是伴随着批评。但这种解读有点暗示了我不相信休闲生活。我不想让我们重新回到第一个营养素的话题上以分散我们注意力，但现在这个场合谈论这个问题还是适合的。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

And you're, you tell junior, you know, don't eat before dinner because it's unhealthy. But if you were being honest, you'd say, I want you to suffer. That's why you can't have a snack. A few years ago, I was out a lot on the internet saying, you know, dopamine that comes without effort before it is, is very pernicious. And I stand behind that. But some people like took the interpretation too far. It in part, in an attempt to malign me, which is fine. Like, you know, I'm out there. Yeah, sure. That comes with the territory. But it sort of implied, I didn't have the language for it, but now I do, thanks to you. It sort of implied that I don't believe in leisure. Right. I don't want to return us to the first macronutrient in a way that distracts us, but I think this is appropriate now.

当然，休闲是很棒的。但我认为在你努力工作之后，休闲会更加美好。因此，如果你一直在为某个有内在奖励的目标努力工作，那么这种工作本身就可以变得具有内在的奖励感，或者不然。你知道的，我在研究生院做了很多我非常喜欢的事情。但也有一些事情，唯一能形容它们的词就是“糟糕”。对，就是糟糕。熬夜，连续两天记录实验，还有吸入实验室里的异氟醚，真的非常不愉快。然而，那些当我们完成实验的星期五，我会开车去戴维斯外面的一个果园，那里的休闲活动却令人感到美妙。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

So, of course, leisure is great. But I would say leisure is way better when you've been working hard. And so if you've been working hard towards something that has its own intrinsic reward, you, the work itself can become intrinsically rewarding or not. You know, there are a lot of things I did in graduate school that I absolutely loved the process. And there are some of them that, like, the only word for it is it sucked. Right. It just, it sucked. All-nighters, like, two days recording experiments and, like, just, like, breathing all that isofluorine in the room. And it was just, like, it sucked. But, and it was awesome. But there are forms of leisure, like, on those Fridays when we finished those experiments, I would drive out to this orchard outside of Davis where I did graduate school to winters.

我会这样表达：那时候我一有机会就拿出四部手机，在车里听音乐。我觉得自己仿佛穿越了时间，与所有经历过忙碌一周工作、然后在车里放松听音乐的人产生了共鸣。后来，我和女朋友也会一起开车去那里。现在，我能和她分享这种经历。她是一名科学家，也非常努力地工作。实际上，她的实验需要更高的坚持，这真是令人敬佩。所以说，努力不一定是为了追求多巴胺，有时候只是一种多元的自我提升方式。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

And I would just, this would be four phones, I would just listen to music in my car. And I just felt like, I felt like I'd been transported in time. That's right. And I felt connected to all the people who had worked a hard week and then were just listening to music in their car. And then eventually my girlfriend and I would drive out there. And now I could share that experience with her. And she was a scientist and worked really, really hard, too, arguably even harder than I was because the experiment she was doing took yet another level of persistence that's really remarkable. So it's not that saying that effort has to be there before dopamine is, like, means you're a one-track, like, self-optimization junkie.

好的。在我看来，这只是成为一个好人的重要方面之一。所以我有点反感这种观点，即这样的概念会被解读为反快乐。但从某种意义上说，人类的思维有这样一种倾向：我们听到一个方面，听到一块“派”的内容，然后就断定，这意味着这个人没有休闲。不是这样的。但我喜欢你的工作以及你今天告诉我们的，即真正重要的是完整的“派图”，而不是某一个片刻。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

Right. It's just an important pie slice in being, like, a good human being, in my opinion. Yeah. So I kind of bristle at the idea that a concept like that could be construed as anti-pleasure. But in a sense, it's really, like, there's something about the human mind where we want, we hear one piece of this. We hear about one pie slice. Right. And we say, oh, so that means, like, leisure doesn't exist for this person. No, no. But what I love about your work and what you're telling us today is that it's really about the complete pie chart. It's not about any one moment.

这与我们的思维和生物本能息息相关。我们天生就为了获取回报而努力，为了赢得成功而奋斗。如果不通过努力来获得成功，我们根本无法真正理解任何东西的价值。我们想要成功，因为我们认为，比如，士力架巧克力能带来快乐。其实不然，真正让你感到快乐的是刺激大脑释放的神经化学物质。这种快乐是通过大脑的复杂作用实现的。获得博士学位本身并不会给你带来快乐，也不是那张证书本身有特别之处。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

And it's working with our brains, working with our biology. We are built to earn our rewards. We are built to earn our success. We have no concept of what anything is worth if we don't earn our success. And, you know, the reason that we want to do that, we think that, you know, that a Snickers bar gives you pleasure. No, no, no, no, no. It's actually the neurochemicals that are giving you pleasure, that are actually making you feel this pleasure. It just happens to circuitously through the way that the brain works. Getting your PhD didn't give you pleasure per se. There was nothing about the piece of paper.

实际上，这是你完成了这件事情的认知。因此，人们生活中通向卓越和成功的最大秘诀之一就是获得成就感。这意味着接受痛苦、挣扎和困难，并与之和平相处。但这并不代表生活全是苦难。奋斗者常犯的错误之一就是认为一切都是挣扎。你可能还记得你所在的知名机构进行的沃尔特·米歇尔棉花糖实验，尽管存在争议但并未被完全否定。追踪研究显示，在5分钟内吃掉棉花糖的孩子们缺乏自制力，往往会取得较差的成绩并在工作上表现不佳等。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

It was actually the knowledge that you had done this thing. And so one of the greatest secrets to excellence and success in people's lives is the sense of earning it. And that means making peace with suffering, making peace with pain, making peace with struggle is what it comes down to. Now, that doesn't mean, and one of the biggest mistakes that strivers often make is that it's all struggle. I mean, you remember this, the not discredited but complicated Walter Mischel marshmallow experiments at your fine institution. And what they, you know, the follow-up, you know, the kids who ate the marshmallow within five minutes, they were, they had no impulse control. And they went on to actually get worse grades and worse jobs, et cetera.

在棉花糖实验中，那些20%能够抵挡诱惑而没有吃掉棉花糖的孩子，他们最终得到了第二颗棉花糖，并且在生活中表现得更好。整个实验的意义在于推迟满足感是你的成就潜力的一个重要信号。然而，对于很多努力奋斗的人来说，最大的问题之一是他们不知道自己的“棉花糖”究竟是什么。因此，他们可能就此等待一生。而这并不是你的意思，也不是你所讨论的内容。永远不去追逐成功者，永远不去真正聆听音乐，永远不去等待并享受那第二颗棉花糖，这同样也是错误的。这实际上是一个巨大的错误。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

And the 20% of the kids in the marshmallow experiment who were able to not eat the marshmallow and they got the second marshmallow, they did much better in life. And so the whole point was the deferral of gratification is a big signal of how well you're actually going to do. One of the biggest problems that strivers have, and I'm speaking to all the strivers watching us right now, is that they don't know what their marshmallow even is. And so they're just going to wait their whole lives. And that's not what you've been saying. That's not what you're talking about. To never, never, never, never drive out to winners, to never actually listen to the music, to never actually wait for the second marshmallow and enjoy that second marshmallow, that's a mistake too. That's actually a huge mistake.

但关键是我们在努力找到一个中庸之道，介于努力去争取与不争取之间。就是要做到足够的努力和挣扎，然后接受奖励，接着再重新开始。这跟很多人的经历有关。我主要的工作之一就是研究如何优雅地老去，如何随着年龄增长变得更快乐。嗯，说说看吧。我觉得这非常重要。原因之一是，我已经不再年轻，而这也是我们每个人的自我探索过程，我们总是在进行“自我研究”而不是“学术研究”。所以我想知道，如何能在60岁时比50岁更快乐，现在我更想知道如何在70岁时比60岁时更快乐。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

But the whole point is we're trying to find the golden mean between earning it and not earning it. That doing enough and struggling enough and then actually taking the reward and then starting again. This actually feeds into a lot of the experiences that people have. A big part of my work is how to age well, about how to get happier as you age. Yeah, do tell. Yeah. I mean, it's super important. And part of the reason is because, man, I'm no spring chicken. And this is me search, right, for all of us. We're always doing me search instead of research. And so I want to know, how can I be happier at 60 than 50? And now I want to know how I can be happy years down the road at 70 instead of 60.

我想知道如何退休。所以当我给别人建议时，我其实是在进行公共教育，因为我自己也在试图回答这些问题。退休是一个典型的例子，说明如何搞砸幸福中的满足感。这就像是我不停地工作、工作、工作，让自己痛苦不堪。然后到了65岁，我就完全停止工作，只顾着玩乐。这样的生活方式只会让整个过程充满痛苦，因为之前没有乐趣，只有没有回报的辛苦付出，而之后又只有回报而没有付出。这在神经生理学上是不合理的。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

I want to know how to retire. And so when I'm giving people advice, I'm doing public education about these things because I've been trying to answer these questions for myself. Retirement is a classic case of screwing up the satisfaction part of happiness. It's like I'm going to work and work and work and work. I'm going to be a miserable SOB. And then at 65, I'm going to stop completely and just goof around. That's the recipe for misery all the way through because it was no fun. It was all suffering without reward. And then it's all reward without suffering. That's neurophysiologically unsound.

但这在哲学上也是站不住脚的，它实际上没有意义。所以我一直在帮助人们退休，但我也试图帮助他们在职业生涯中过上最好的生活，做他们真正擅长的事情。这既困难又有益，并且会随着职业生涯的变化而变化。有很多关于这方面的研究。但关键在于我如何保持满意感。神秘之处在于，当我们真正得到自己想要的东西时，却发现它并没有带给我们期待的满足感。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

But it's also philosophically unsound. It doesn't actually make sense. So I help people retire constantly. But I also try to help them have the best life as they do to move through the course of their careers, do what they're actually naturally good at. That is both hard and rewarding, which changes over the course of your career. There's a lot of research on that. But it all gets into how can I maintain satisfaction. The mystery comes when we actually do get the thing that we actually want and then we find that it leaves us cold.

这似乎真的是一种暴政，就像大自然母亲藏了一个杀手锏，她其实确实有一些。我的意思是，人们常常想着：如果我能得到那块手表，那辆车，那段婚姻，我就会永远幸福。比如，男人会对女人说：“如果你嫁给我，你会让我永远幸福。”这其实不对。求婚时她说什么并不重要，婚礼那天她说什么也不重要。真正重要的是你们在整个婚姻过程中对彼此说了什么，这才是真正能给你们带来最好生活的关键。这就是为什么米克·贾格尔会唱“我无法得到满足”。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

That seems like a real tyranny. Like Mother Nature had a trick up her sleeve, which kind of she did. I mean, you actually, people, if I can get that watch, that car, that marriage, then I'll be happy forever. I mean, guys will say to women, you know, if you marry me, you'll make me happy forever. That's not right. You know, it doesn't matter what she says when you propose. It doesn't matter what she says on her wedding day. It's what you say to each other over the course of your entire marriage that actually will give you net-net the best possible life. That's why Mick Jagger is saying, I can't get no satisfaction.

他应该说的是“我无法获得满足感”。而这就是完全不同的，正如我们在西雅图所说的，是完全另一个问题，谜团。这是西雅图的一种说法吗？我猜是的。我不知道。有太多的文章、网站和博客讨论所谓人们临终时会说的六件事。没有人会说“我希望我多工作一点”。我不知道。我爸爸已经80多岁了，他仍然很有活力，他热爱他的工作，爱他的妻子，爱他的孩子，爱他的咖啡，爱他的冥想，爱他的生活。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

He should have saying, I can't keep no satisfaction. And that's a whole different, as we say in Seattle, a whole nother problem, mystery. Is that a Seattleism? I guess so. I don't know. There's so many articles out there and websites and blogs that are like, the six things that people say on their deathbed. Nobody says, I wish I worked more. I don't know. My dad, he's in his early 80s, and he's still rocking, and he loves his work. And he loves his wife, and he loves his kids, and he loves his coffee, and he loves his meditation, and he loves life.

他是一个快乐的人。他会说，工作一直是——他仍然在工作，吸收新的想法，进行演讲。我想他会说，他很高兴自己工作得刚刚好，也不过多。但在我看来，这些清单，不管是关于工作的还是其他事情的，都没有用。因为对我来说，这些清单其实是在问，当我回顾我的生活时，我想能够说些什么。好吧，我觉得这个分析让我反思，当我完成大学学位时，我想能够说，好吧，这可以为未来的一些选择提供参考，比如交了好朋友，丰富了自己的知识，等等，还要确保自己变得更加健康，而不是变得不健康。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

He's a happy guy. And he would say, like, work has been a—he's still working, consuming ideas, giving lectures. I think he would say he was really glad he worked as much as he did, not more than that. But these lists, to me, are not useful, whether it's about work or whether it's about anything, because the lists, to me, are really about the question, when I look back on my life, I want to be able to say blank. Okay, I feel like that analysis peeled back to, like, when I finish my college degree, I want to be able to say, all right, that can inform some choices going forward, make good friends, got enriched myself intellectually, et cetera, et cetera, didn't, you know, got healthier as opposed to less healthy.

你可以那样做，但我觉得这不是——我感觉这不是正确的问题。就像，这不是正确的事情。当我回顾我的人生时，我想——比如现在，以及你今天、这周、这个月、今年可以做的决定。因为这样你才会到达一个地方，说实话，那些最后的时刻，很有可能会是平静和美丽的，但你并不知道。所以我们想象那种类似于在幕布落下之前的一刻，有些人会经历这种时刻，但我不认为大多数人会。我见过人们去世，那通常不是这样的。我感觉我们倾向于在更短的时间尺度上整合我们的满足感、快乐、匮乏、痛苦等等。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

You could do that, but it's not—I feel like it's the wrong question. Like, it's the wrong thing. When I look back on my life, I want—like, how about now and the decisions you can make today, this week, this month, this year? Because that's how you end up in a place where, and let's face it, most likely those last moments, they could be very peaceful and beautiful, but you don't know. So we imagine this kind of, like, before the curtains close moment that some people get, but I don't think most people get that. I've watched people die. It's not—it's usually not like that. It's—I feel like we tend to integrate our levels of satisfaction, pleasure, lack, the pain, et cetera, on a much shorter timescale.

是否可以想出一套更好的问答，以便更好地活在当下，从而在从现在到未来的时间里更好地指引我们？当然可以，实际上有很多关于这个主题的内容。这个问题涉及到几个不同的方面。首先，这确实涉及到所谓的第三种宏量营养素，那就是意义。我们如何理解我们生命的意义？最终，这种知识是最重要的宏量营养素，它是最具哲学性的，最接近于意识的极难问题，用查尔默斯的说法来表达，等等。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

So is there a better set of questions and answers that we can come up with for living in the now, so that we are steering right through the—more of the time that we have between now and whenever it is that that curtain closes? For sure. There's a lot, actually, on this. And it touches on a couple of different things. Now, to begin with, this really gets into the third macronutrient, which is meaning. And what are we doing to understand the meaning of our lives? Ultimately, that knowledge is the most important macronutrient, the most philosophical, the most—I mean, it gets closest to the, you know, the problem, the hard problem of consciousness, to use Chalmers, his formulation on this, et cetera, et cetera.

但这里面涉及很多事情。首先，正如你知道的，大卫·布鲁克斯谈到了无关的朋友。他谈到简历上的美德和悼词上的美德。而且，你知道，这是真的。你可能不希望在你葬礼上，有人说，他坐飞机积累了五百万英里的里程。我是说，那可能不太……有些朋友真的很在意他们卡上的积分。我懂。这就像一个电子游戏，有点像成年人的游戏。他们在计数，这是一个记分板。部分原因是因为这给他们一种满足感。他们想要取得进步，朝着一个目标和方向前进，实现进步。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

But there's a lot that goes into it. To begin with, it's, you know, it's like, these are—David Brooks talks about no relation, friend but no relation. He talks about resume versus eulogy virtues. And, you know, it's true. You know, it's probably better if you don't imagine people at your funeral saying, he had five million miles on Delta. I mean, it's probably not— That's some friends who are, like, really into their points on their cards. I know. It's a video game. It's an adult-ish. Yeah. They're trying to count. They're a scoreboard. And part of the reason is because that's a sense of satisfaction. You know, they're trying to get that. They want to make progress, progress toward a goal, goals and direction, making progress.

我们是以进步为导向的动物，这就是为什么得分板如此重要。问题在于，一旦你在某个阶段赶超得分板，最终的结果是，你的生命会结束，人死不能复生。而且你会意识到没有人在乎这些。因此，如果所有人谈论的只是这个琐碎的得分板，比如常旅客里程或银行账户中的金钱，或者其他世俗的东西，那就是一个问题。这就引出了关于什么事情会引发遗憾而什么不会的第一个标准。这是一个深刻的哲学问题，根植于经典哲学，同时也有很多行为科学的支持。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

We're progress-oriented animals, which is why the scoreboard is so important. The trouble is that once you run up the scoreboard after a certain point, I mean, you die and stay dead. And you realize that nobody actually cares. And so if all anybody talks about is this trivial scoreboard, which is frequent flyer miles or money in a bank account, right, or any of these other worldly things, it's a problem. And that really leads to the first criterion for what actually is going to lead to regret and what isn't. And that's a deep philosophical thing that has a lot of roots in classical philosophy, but also a lot of behavioral science behind it as well.

所以，亚里士多德相对于13世纪的圣托马斯·阿奎那，他主张我们都想要快乐。好的，这没问题，这很不错。现在，他对快乐的定义是"至福"，即与神关系中的神圣临在的光辉。其他对快乐有不同定义的人可能不是传统宗教信徒，但我想每个人都会同意，我们都想要快乐。他说，要做到这一点，我们往往倾向于跟随自己的动物本能。到目前为止一切都很顺利，这又回到了我们之前谈话的一个早期部分。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

So Aristotle, vis-a-vis St. Thomas Aquinas in the 13th century, he asserted that we want to be happy. Okay. All right. Fair. This is pretty good. Now, his definition of happiness was beatitudo, which is the luminescence of presence of God, right, to the relationship with God. Other people define it in different ways who are not traditionally religious, but I think everybody would agree, yeah, we want to be happy. He said that to do that, I mean, you have a tendency to follow your animal impulses. So far, so good. Gets back to an early part of the conversation.

他说，你的动物本能会告诉你一个根本性的谎言。这个谎言就是以下四件事会让你感到真正的快乐和满意，你会觉得自己终于达到了目标。这四件事是金钱、资源、权力（即对他人的影响力）、以及快乐（包括舒适或安全感），或者说是荣誉。对于你我这样的学者而言，这就像是：“嘿，那是Andrew Huberman，他在某个没人听说过的学术期刊上发表了关于七维消失流形的论文。”

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

And he said, your animal impulses tell you one fundamental lie. And that fundamental lie is that the following four things, when they beguile you and you get them, that you'll be actually happy and you'll be finally satisfied. You'll finally be there. Those four things are money, resources, power, which is influence over other people, pleasure, which also is comfort or security, right, or honor. Which means, you know, for you and me as academics, it's like, hey, that's Andrew Huberman. He wrote that paper in the journal of, you know, seven-dimensional, you know, disappearing manifolds or, you know, some academic journal nobody's ever heard of.

但无论如何，学术声望、赞美等，都是让人追求的迷人事物。如果你把这些当作最终目的去追求，它们本身并没有什么不对，因为它们可以被用来实现很大的价值。但如果你把它们当作唯一的目标时，这就可能会给你带来麻烦。这才是我们真正的问题所在。所以有人会说，没有人会希望自己花更多的时间在工作上，他们真正应该说的是，没有人会希望自己变得更有名或者希望自己的退休账户里多出一百万美元，因为这些事情实际上并不能给你带来真正的满足。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

But still, academic prestige, admiration, whatever it happens to be. Those are beguiling idols that if you pursue those things as an end per se, there's nothing evil about them. They can be used for great good. But if you use them as an end per se, that's when you'll wind up in trouble. That's the problem that we actually get. So they say, nobody says, I wish I'd worked more. What they should say is, nobody says, I wish I'd gotten a little bit more famous. I wish I had had, you know, a million more dollars in my 401k that I have no idea what's going to actually happen to it.

这就是他们真正想表达的意思。所以，从这个角度退一步来看，如果我们想要更幸福，就需要评估我们是否在追求这些世俗的偶像。这实际上是非常好的行为科学，因为这几乎完美地分类了我们真正追逐的事情。我在哈佛商学院的学生中玩了一个游戏。他们不知道自己的偶像是什么，对此一无所知。我对金钱没有任何偏见，我认为金钱能带来很多美好的事物，比如工作、机会、成长、税收、慈善。权力没有错，影响力也是，如果这些被以美好的方式使用的话。快乐呢，快乐会带来新生命，所以这很好。至于名声，你可以利用它。有很多很多人，我向你保证，安德鲁，因为你的名声，现在有很多人正在攻读博士学位，这对人类来说是美好和有益的。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

That's really what they're saying. And so back up from that and for us to be happier, we need to assess whether or not we are serving these worldly idols. And that's incredibly good behavioral science because that is an almost perfect taxonomy of the things that we actually chase. I have a game I play with my students at HBS. They don't know what their idol is. They don't know what it is. And again, I got nothing against money. I think money can be, does wonderful things, jobs, opportunity, growth, taxes, philanthropy. There's nothing wrong with power, influence, other people wielded in a virtuous way. Pleasure. I mean, pleasure leads to babies. So great. Fame. You can refract your fame. I mean, there are lots and lots of people. I promise you, Andrew, there are lots of people pursuing their PhDs right now because of your fame, which is a beautiful and a good thing for humanity.

问题在于，如果你把某样东西当作你的主要目标，并赋予它神秘的力量，它会伤害你。因此，我和他们玩了一个游戏。什么是我的偶像？他们不知道。他们不知道他们的偶像是什么。你想玩吗？好的。我在玩 "什么是我的偶像"。是的，我有点害怕，但我们开始吧。我们来做吧。我想借此机会感谢我们的赞助商之一，David。David 制作的蛋白棒与众不同。他们最新的产品“铜棒”含有20克蛋白质，只有150卡路里，零糖。我必须说，这是我吃过的口感最好的蛋白棒，我尝试过很多不同的蛋白棒。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

The problem is it will hurt you if one of these things is your primary objective, is your primary goal, and you endow it with mythical power. So I play a game with them. What's my idol? They don't know. They don't know what their idol is. You want to play? Yeah. I'm playing what's my idol. Yeah, I'm a little scared, but let's do it. Let's do it. I'd like to take a quick break to acknowledge one of our sponsors, David. David makes protein bars unlike any other. Their newest bar, the Bronze Bar, has 20 grams of protein, only 150 calories, and zero grams of sugar. I have to say, these are the best-tasting protein bars I've ever had, and I've tried a lot of protein bars over the years.

这些新的David能量棒有棉花糖底，外面包裹着巧克力，非常美味。当然，我平常是吃常规的天然食品，比如肉类、鸡肉、鱼、鸡蛋、水果、蔬菜等等。不过，我也每天都会吃一到两根David能量棒作为零食，这样很容易就能达到我每磅体重摄入一克蛋白质的目标，这让我在不摄入过多卡路里的情况下获得所需的蛋白质。我喜欢所有口味的David Bronze Bar，包括饼干面团、焦糖巧克力、双倍巧克力、巧克力花生酱口味。它们真的都像糖果一样好吃。而且，它们不含糖，却有20克蛋白质和只有150卡路里。简直太棒了。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

These new David bars have a marshmallow base, and they're covered in chocolate coating, and they're absolutely incredible. I, of course, eat regular whole foods. I eat meat, chicken, fish, eggs, fruits, vegetables, etc. But I also make it a point to eat one or two David bars per day as a snack, which makes it easy to hit my protein goal of one gram of protein per pound of body weight. And that allows me to take in the protein I need without consuming excess calories. I love all the David Bronze Bar flavors, including cookie dough, caramel chocolate, double chocolate, peanut butter chocolate. They all actually taste like candy bars. Again, they're amazing. But again, they have no sugar, and they have 20 grams of protein with just 150 calories.

如果你想尝试一下 David，可以访问 davidprotein.com/huberman。现在，David 提供一个优惠：购买四盒，就能免费获得第五盒。如何辨别出你的偶像？根据阿奎那的建议和现代社会科学的验证，这些东西本身没有问题。但如果你追求这些，最终会成为你日后痛苦和遗憾的根源。因为追求这些时，你是在付出代价，而这个代价几乎总是爱。爱是幸福的秘密。我们想要的是爱人与被爱。而当你追求一些不真实、不生命的东西时，就会失去爱人与被爱的机会，如果你将其视为目标的话。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

If you'd like to try David, you can go to davidprotein.com slash huberman. Right now, David is offering a deal where if you buy four cartons, you get the fifth carton for free. The way to know what your idol is, and again, what Aquinas suggests and what modern social science absolutely verifies, is that, again, nothing wrong with these things. But if you pursue this, this winds up being the source of your later bitterness and regret. The reason is because when you pursue these things, you're doing it at cost. And the cost is almost always love. Love is the secret of happiness. To love and be loved is what we want. And when you pursue something that's not real, that's not alive, then you're sacrificing opportunities to love and be loved, if you pursue it as a goal, per se.

当你知道自己的偶像是什么时，你仍然会犯错误，仍然会搞砸，仍然会有很多不快乐的时候。但有时你会避免错误，这非常有力量。玩这个游戏的方法是逐一排除，因为在尝试解决这些事情时，你总是会进行排除法。这种方法更稳健，更好。把你没有的偶像一个接一个地排除掉。随着进行事情会越来越难，开始时会非常简单。我甚至可以预测你会排除哪些偶像。一直排除，直到只剩下一个。而这一个最有可能迷惑你，引导你走错路。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

But when you know what your idol is, you'll still make mistakes. You're still going to mess up. You're still going to be miserable a lot. But you'll sometimes avoid the error, which is incredibly powerful. Great. The way to play this game is to eliminate, because you always do elimination when you're trying to do these things. It's much more robust. It's actually better. Eliminate the idol that you don't have, one by one by one. It's going to get harder as we go along. It's going to start off really, really easy. I can even make predictions about you, about what you would eliminate. But eliminate them until you've got the last one. And that's the one that's most likely to beguile you and lead you down the wrong road.

因此，金钱、资源、权力、快乐、名声或他人的敬仰中，你需要放弃其中一样。这并不意味着你完全没有它，只是代表你的水平在大众的平均线上。假如你选择放弃金钱，比如说你不在乎，那就意味着你在经济上是最典型的美国人，而从全球来看，这种状况已经令人难以置信；从历史来看更是极为富有。因此，你能选择放弃的是金钱、权力、快乐（这也可以是舒适或安全感）、声望（或名声、敬仰等，或者是尊重）。而且，权力也可以是仁慈的。这些东西都可以是美好的，因为那些最有德行和幸福的人往往拥有这些。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

So money, resources, power, pleasure, fame, or adoration of other people. You're going to get rid of one. And this doesn't mean you don't have it. It just means you're the population average. Get rid of one of those. Yeah. If you got rid of money, for example, you say, I don't care about it. That just means you're the most average American economically, which by world standards is unbelievable. Historical standards is fabulously wealthy. So you said it was money. Power. Pleasure. And pleasure can also be comfort or security. Right. Or and and honor, which is prestige or fame or adoration or whatever it happens to be or respect. And power can be benevolent too. Totally. These all can be great because the most virtuous, happy people have these things.

好的。他们有很多这样的事情。是的。我并不太在意所谓的荣誉和奖项。事实上，就简单说一个小故事，我已经有三四年的教授终身职位了。对，尽管很多人可能认为在斯坦福就没什么经济困难，但我作为教授却为经济问题苦恼着。我很高兴……我也是其中之一。于是，我和当时的系主任，或者是副主任聊了聊。他说，总有一天，你会成为系主任。我们系的主任是轮流担任的。顺便说一句，我现在还在这个系里，我们看看这次谈话结束后我是否还在。不管怎么说。他说，成为系主任有工资增长。我当时想，真的吗？后来我想了想，我见过那些系主任的工作状态。他们不能像以前那样专注于科学研究。那完全是另一种体验。这是一个披着荣誉外衣的惩罚。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

Yeah. They have a lot of these things. Yeah. I don't care much about the notion of like honor and accolades. In fact, just as a very brief anecdote, I'd been tenured for maybe three, four years. Yeah. And I was struggling financially as a professor, despite what people might think about Stanford. And I was happy to, you know. I was one of those too. And so I had a conversation with my then chair or was it vice chair? And he said, well, you know, at some point, you know, you'll be chair. And then of the department is rotating chair. I'm still in this department, by the way. We'll see if I still am at the end of this conversation. What the heck? And he said, you know, it comes with a pay increase. And I was like, really? And I thought about it. I'd seen what happened to chairs of departments. Couldn't focus as much on science. It's a totally different. It's a punishment disguised as an honor.

是的，这对任何真正的科学家来说都是一种惩罚。但他们掩饰这种说法，把它称为对部门的服务。没错，这也是事实。一个好的系主任是很有价值的，有些人在这方面非常出色。我有一个从小到大的好朋友，他就是个系主任。但是，系主任需要具备某些重要的素质。所以我脱口而出的话就是，我该如何确保我永远不会成为系主任呢？好吧，我现在认为我成为系主任的可能性很小，因为我不常在部门里出现。但我想知道我该怎么做才能绝对确保自己不会成为系主任。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

Yeah. It's a punishment to any real scientist. But they cloak it and they say, no, this is service to the department. Yeah. And that's true. Right. And a good chair is valuable. Some people are exceptional at it. I have a close friend of mine from childhood. He's a chair. But the chair needs certain attributes that are important. And so the response out of my mouth was, how do I make sure I never become chair? Well, so I think now it's very unlikely I'll be chair of the department. I'm not around enough. But like, how do I make absolutely sure that I'm like not like, like do anything to not be chair?

由于我爸爸是一位科学家，我从小就见过很多科学家，并听到过许多科学界名人的故事。我听说过一个关于伟大的理查德·费曼的故事，但不确定这是否是真的。故事是这样的：费曼被选入了国家科学院，然后在就职晚宴上，他问某人：“接下来会怎样？”那人回答说：“哦，接下来你就要选其他人进来了。”费曼又说：“等一下，所以这个就像一个俱乐部，大家互相授勋章？”然后他就说：“我退出。”不论这个故事是否真实，它都很棒，而且很有趣。我知道，无论故事是真是假，它所揭示的是，这些荣誉其实毫无意义。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

By virtue of the fact that my dad's a scientist and I grew up seeing a lot of scientists and hearing about a lot of luminaries of science. I heard this story about Richard Feynman, the great Richard Feynman, where apparently, I don't know if this is true or not, but he was elected into the National Academy of Sciences. Yeah. And I think at the inaugural dinner, he said like to someone like, well, what happens now? And they go, oh, you elect other people in. And he goes, wait, so this is like a club where like we pin medals on each other? And he goes, I quit. If it's not true, it's awesome. If it's true, it's awesome. Yeah, it's funny. And I knew that true or not, what the story illustrates is that like those honors mean nothing.

实际上，我认为诺贝尔奖最重要的事情，不仅仅在于它所认可的发现的价值，而在于它让获奖者在大学中成为一个出色的筹款人。就是这样，奖项固然重要，但荣誉对于我来说，并没有特别吸引力。我拿到了博士学位，是因为我需要它来完成某项具体的工作。成为一位知名的公共知识分子，这对我来说是重要的吗？这是不是我追求的动力？因为这确实是另一回事，对吧？

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

In fact, the most important thing about a Nobel Prize, I believe, is that it allows the winner, in addition to the value of the discovery, but it allows the winner to be a great fundraiser for other people at the university. That's it. Yeah. And so, and the discovery, obviously. But anyway, so honor doesn't really, like I'm not interested in medals or things. I got a PhD because I needed one to get to do a pen stock. But you go super famous as a public intellectual. Is that important? Does that motivate you? Because that's, you know, that's a different kettle of fish, isn't it?

我来公开声明，成名会显著增加你的机会，同时也会极大地限制你的自由。对我来说，这并不重要。成名只是我追求其他东西的一个副产品。你是内向型还是外向型? 我非常内向，尽管我话不少。我需要很多时间。这我懂。我真的需要很多。你要是看到我一个人的时候就知道我话更多了。开玩笑的。做完播客后你可能会很疲惫。是的。我爱我的团队，但我有意与很少的人交流。没错，我非常需要思考的时间，我爱和人交流，但我非常非常内向。我明白了。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

I will go on record saying that fame increases your opportunities exponentially and limits your freedoms exponentially. Right. No, it's not important to me. Okay. It's a byproduct of the pursuit of other things. Are you an introvert or an extrovert? Strongly introverted, despite how much I talk. Got it. I need a lot of time. No, I get it. I need a lot. You should see me when I'm alone. I talk even more. No, I'm kidding. You're probably exhausted after a podcast. Yeah. I love my team and, but I interact with very few people on purpose. No, I am very, I need time to think and I love people, but I'm very, very introverted. I got it.

好的，我明白了。我相信你。所以你会选择过普通的生活，像你家附近的邮递员一样，这样也挺好的。我的社区有一些负责清洁的人，虽然我住的附近环境不太好，但我努力保持我自己的地方干净。那些清洁工就像英雄一样，我经常给他们带点饼干什么的。他们真的是在为大家打扫卫生，无论是动物的排泄物还是人的垃圾，我非常敬佩他们。他们中我认识的一些人总是很开心。我有时候想，或许有一天我也可以穿上那种橙色背心，融入他们的行列，也许都不会被人注意到。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

Yeah. I got it. Okay. So I believe you. And so you'd go to the normal, the most normal. You'd be as famous as your mailman. Oh, that'd be awesome. Okay. I have the best, like the people that clean up my neighborhood, I live in a pretty grungy neighborhood, but my place, I do my best to keep really nice. These people are like my heroes. I'm always bringing them a Tina and like, they're out there, like they're literally scraping up shit from animals, people, like I love these people. And they're so, like the ones I know, they're so happy. And I'm like, man, maybe someday I just like throw on one of those orange vests and just like disappear into like, you know, I won't name a town, but yeah.

如果你不这样做，不要提那个城镇的名字，否则他们很快就会找到你。对，好，好，好。现在我们算是解决了一个简单的问题：金钱、权力、享乐。接下来呢？这意味着接下来的选择会更难，因为所有这些事物都有它们的回报。那么，你接下来会放弃哪个呢？享乐。因为你相当严谨。我是说，你的书叫《协议》。对的。我继承了我妈妈的……人们，我是说，有时候会像有个旁观者在一样，人们可能会觉得我像是在演戏。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

If you don't, don't name the town or pretty soon they'll find you. Yeah. So, okay, good, good, good. Now we got rid of the easy one in a way. Money, power, pleasure. What's next? That means it's going to be a little harder because all these things are, you know, have their rewards. Yeah. So which one do you get rid of next? Pleasure. Pleasure. And then, because you're pretty austere. I mean, you're pretty, you're, I mean, look, your book's called Protocols. Yeah. Yeah. I inherited my, my mom's, um, people, I was, I, this kind of like, um, observer comes on where like, people are gonna think I'm like scripting this.

就像我的妈妈有着拯救世界的心态，这种精神在我身上也是非常真实和鲜活的。我们都渴望带来积极的改变。可是在我身上更强烈的，是那种情感一旦触及我，它会变得非常强烈。就像我爱的人，我爱得那么深，有时候我觉得我的头顶要爆炸了，或者感觉我的心脏要爆裂了，这种感觉并不舒适。我变得更能忍受这种感觉了。让我情绪化的是，我确实认为悲伤与爱是成比例的。但是，我不会从我和最好朋友一起工作的播客工作室走出去时，想着今晚他们中的一个可能会遇到不测。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

Like my mom has a save the world piece of her. That's very real and very alive in me. But the thing we also share, like a desire to, to save, change, positive change. But the thing that comes alive in me that I definitely got from her is like, if an emotion like gets to me, if it comes up, it's big. Like, I, like the people I love, I love so big that sometimes I think the top of my head's going to explode. Like, or that I think like my heart's going to explode and, and it's, and it's not comfortable. Yeah. It's, uh, um, it's, uh, I've gotten better at tolerating that. Yeah. Yeah, it makes me emotional because I do think that like grief is proportional to love. And, but so I don't walk out of my podcast studio where I work with my best friends, not all of them, but all of them are my best friends. It's not, but I have best friends elsewhere too, but I walk out and I don't think, oh, God, like one of them might die on the road tonight.

我只是觉得自己是世界上最幸运的人，因为我能够和这些人一起工作，这让我感到非常充实。有时候，这种感觉会让人感到有些不堪重负。因此，享乐并不是我所追求的，我不需要更强烈的体验。每天从早到晚，我的生活已经非常丰富多彩。而且，你也不是个喝酒或吸毒的人。我也是，我从来都不是个嗜酒或吸毒的人。那么，让我说些关于你妈妈的好话吧。你知道吗，从一开始你就把荣誉看得很重——你知道那些荣誉上瘾者有什么共同点吗？他们都觉得爱是要靠努力争取的。他们通常有着相似的童年，擅长某些事情。我知道你以前是个好学生，也擅长滑板这些。我承认，在网络来找我麻烦之前，先说清楚。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

I just think that I'm the luckiest human being on the planet to work with these people doing so, but it fills me so much. Sometimes it's a lot, it's a lot to, to tolerate. So pleasure is not something that I like, I don't need more intense experiences. Right. I'm having intense experiences from the moment I wake up until the moment I go to sleep. Yeah. Yeah. And you, and you're, and you're not a drinker. You're not a substance user. I'm not a drinker. I've never been a drug guy. Yeah. So let me say something nice about your mom. Okay. So the fact that you kicked out honor right from the very beginning, you know what honor addicts all have in common? They think that love is earned. That's what they all have in common. They usually have this common childhood where they're really, really good at something. I know you were a good student and you were a good skateboarder and you were good at stuff. No, I was, wait, wait, to be fair, before the internet comes for me.

是的。我滑板技术不是很好，这让我转向学术，因为我总是受伤。我很喜欢滑板，也是一名好学生，但我从来不是那种天赋异禀的人，一直需要努力工作。对于很多年轻人来说，尤其是那些父母是知识分子和优秀人群的孩子们，很容易从父母那里学到，当他们做了些不寻常的事情时才会得到关注和爱。结果是，他们的小脑袋里形成了一种想法，即爱是要靠努力去赢得的。但爱并不是通过努力获得的。爱是一种无偿的馈赠，是一种恩典。如果你在生活中，尤其是在你心理形成的关键时期，总是认为爱是靠努力赢得的，那么你会选择一些让你感到必须去争取他们爱的朋友。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

Yeah. I was not a very good skateboarder, which drove me toward academics because I kept getting hurt. I loved this board and I was a, I was a good student, but I was not, I've always had to work hard. It's very easy for, for, for a lot of young people, particularly the young people of, of those who are of intellectuals and, and excellent people to learn from their parents that they get attention and affection when they do something unusual. And the result is that their little brains register the idea that love is earned and love isn't earned. Love is a free gift, freely given. Love is a grace. And if you go through life, particularly in the most plastic part of your, of your, you know, your psychological formation, thinking that love is earned, you'll surround yourself with people who will make you make you earn their love.

你会娶一个让你努力赢得她的爱的人，还有一些朋友会奉承你并告诉你，他们的爱也是需要你去争取的。结果就是你会在不同的人之间徘徊，成了真正的“荣誉上瘾者”。这些人有一个共同点，就是他们有一个庞大的公众生活，而你会渴望陌生人的赞美。你会真正渴望这种赞美，因为这就是上瘾：试图赢得即使是陌生人的爱。这是个大问题。那么谁真正让你变得完整？可能是你的妈妈，可能是你的父母，因为他们无条件地爱着你，并且可能仍然如此。这就是良好的教育。他们确实这样做了，而且他们无条件地爱着我们，毫无疑问，是的。当别人说“哦，你是某某人”时，我一点多巴胺的刺激也没有。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

You'll marry somebody who, who will make you earn her love and friends who kiss up to you and say, you got to earn my love. And the result is you'll go from person to person to person. You'll be a real honor addict. And, and what, what people have in common is that they have a big public life, which happened to you, that you'll crave the adoration of strangers. You'll actually crave it because that's the addiction is trying to earn the love. Even of strangers. And that's a big problem. So who actually made you whole? Probably your mom, probably your parents, because they loved you unconditionally and they probably still do. That's good parenting. Yeah. That's, yeah, they, they definitely did. And they, and they, uh, love, love us unconditionally and they definitely do. And, um, yeah, I, I get a zero, zero dopamine hit from people saying, oh, you're so-and-so.

可以给我拍张照吗？我不介意。真正让我感到满足的是，当我收到一封邮件，说有人因为听了我的播客而决定去学习神经科学，或者做了一些事情，从中受益匪浅，并且丰富了他们的生活。这让我感觉非常好。因为这样我就觉得，太好了，我至少知道自己没有在浪费时间。金钱和权力，金钱只是意味着资源，它是你做事情的能力。这并不意味着它能让你成为一个更完整的人。通常，一个人的金钱偶像可能源于他们的身份认同。有时候这个偶像来自于那些从小生活富裕的人，因为对他们来说这就是正常生活的意义；或者来自于那些从小贫穷的人，因为他们知道没有钱的困难。所以，不同的环境会引发这种情况。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

Can I get, get a picture? It doesn't bother me. Right. What does fill me is when I get an email that somebody is like, I'm going to go study neuroscience or I did this thing and it really, you know, I learned from so-and-so on your podcast and, and it's, and it's enriched my life. That feels really good. Yeah. Cause then I feel like, okay, great. Like I, I at least I know I'm not wasting my time. Yeah. You know, money and money and power and money just means resources. It's the ability to do stuff. It doesn't mean that it makes you more whole as a person, but it, and often this can, the answer can come from a sense of identity. So often a money idol will come from people who grew up rich because that's what it means to be a normal person or they grew up poor because they know how bad it is when you don't have it. So there's all kinds of circumstances that can provoke this.

这段话翻译成中文可以是：权力就是让人有种想要掌控一切的感觉，我真的非常非常想负责，而且这并不是一种缺点，这就是推动你的动力。那么你接下来会舍弃什么呢？金钱。金钱的方面，你可能会变得像邮差一样的经济状况。我现在说这个话，是因为我处于一种经济安全的位置。一定会有人在评论里说，这样的说法很轻松。Huberman和Brooks他们完全不懂，因为他们处于不同的境地，我明白。但我相信你。是的，对那些人而言，你确实经历过这两种境况。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

And, and, and power is just like, I, I want to be in charge. I really, really want to be in charge, which is not, it's not, it's not a vice. It's not a, you know, but, but it's really what drives you. So which one do you get rid of next? Money. Money, which is you, you become the most, you become economically just like your postman. Yeah, I, I'd be fine. Who probably has it. I mean, I'm saying that now from a position of financial security. So it like, no, no, look, they're in the comments. Somebody is going to say, you know, easy to say. Huberman and Brooks are, yeah, like completely full of it because they're, you know, right. I got it. But I believe you. Yeah. But to those people, you have been in both situations. Definitely.

在我把实验室搬到斯坦福之前，我在圣地亚哥的负责人那里工作。我之前曾去找他要求加薪。在那个部门，你可以自行设定薪资，只要不超过他的就行。我当时有很多科研资助。我问他能不能帮我加薪，他反问我想赚多少。我告诉了他，但他拒绝了，因为那个部门没有薪资对等的制度。在我现在所在的斯坦福部门里，薪资是有对等标准的，你不能比比你资历更高的人赚得多。我对他说，在某些部门薪资对等很重要，但在其他部门则未必如此。当时我有很多科研资助，希望今年能加薪2万美元，这对我当时的收入来说已经是一笔不小的增加。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

So my chairman in San Diego, before I moved my lab to Sanford, he had the, I went to him for a salary increase. So in that department, you could set your own salary as long as it wasn't higher than his. And I had a lot of grants. Get him a raise. What do you want to earn? What do you want to earn? And I told him and he said, no, there was no parity in that department. In our, in my department at Stanford, there is. You, you, you can't make more than someone more senior than you. I said, parity is important in certain departments, not in others. And I had a lot of grants. I'd like a raise of $20,000 this year, which on the, that was a significant fraction of what I was making.

他这样说，"记住"，他做了那种曾经流行的转身和凝视的动作，现在这种动作已经不太合适了。就像一个男性主席转向你，双膝分开坐着。他说，从现在看，你会赚得比你应得的要少。但到了你职业生涯的后期，他谈的其实是他自己，你会赚得比你应得的要多。因为你会有资历保障。他其实是个很好的人，他说得非常对。他就是比尔·莫布利，他现在还活着，而且他还是个冥想者，跟达赖喇嘛是朋友。你好，比尔。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

And, and he said, just remember, he like did the whole like pivot and look thing like that, like, you're not allowed to do anymore. Like, like male chairman pivots towards you, like, like sitting with his knees open. And he like, you did the, like, you can never get away with this anymore. And he said, just remember, you're going to make a lot less money than you deserve. He was talking about then. And he's like, and then in the later part of your career, he was talking about himself. You're going to make a lot more money than you deserve. Because you're going to have tenure. He's actually a really good guy. And he was absolutely right. There's Bill Mobley. He's still alive. And, and it's actually a meditator. He's friends with the Dalai Lama. So hi, Bill.

他完全正确。我不知道那会如何发生，也不知道具体的情况。我不知道那会发生，但事实证明这是真的。所以如果我要回顾我过去二十多年的收入，我非常乐意待在实验室，省下一点钱，这样在研究生期间每个月可以去滑一次雪。为什么要付房租呢？楼里有淋浴设施，就是所谓的“猴子笼清洗器”。你知道的，比如里面有个带水槽的浴室。别人可能觉得我疯了，但这样我就不用通勤了。当然，当时我没有结婚，也没有孩子。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

He was absolutely right. I didn't know how that was going to happen or anything. I didn't know it was going to happen, but it turned out that that's true. So if I were to average my income back across two and a half decades of, yeah, I, I was perfectly happy to live in a lab and save up a little bit of money to be able to go snowboarding once a month in graduate school. Like, why pay rent? They have showers in the building. They're called monkey cage washers. You know, like the, you know, like the, you can't turn the heat on, you know, it's like they have a bathroom with a sink. Like if people thought I was crazy, right. But then, then I didn't have to commute, you know, now granted, I wasn't married with kids or anything.

所以我经历过两种生活方式。我不能说我曾经贫穷过，说实话，我过得挺节俭的。说到钱，钱确实挺好的，但也没有那么有趣。你能想象拥有一艘船吗？不，我觉得那会是个麻烦。别让我去买船，我不得不和爷爷去参加一个很长的船旅，那真是折磨。我喜欢出海一天，也喜欢看到海上的船和去潜水。我们现在谈的是极端情况，但对我来说，钱并不是最大的动力。有钱固然好，但我觉得我已经在回答你可能接下来的问题了。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

So I've lived both ways. I wouldn't say I've ever been poor. I want, I want to be honest. It was austere. Money's not like, it's great. It's not that fun. I mean, it's not that much. You can, can you imagine like having a boat? No, that'd be a pain in the ass. Save me from the boat. No, no, no. I had to go on a long boat thing with my grandfather. It was, it was like, it was torturous. I want to go out on the boat for a day. I like seeing boats on the ocean. I like scuba diving. I'm not, no, I, it would be nice when we're talking extremes here, but no, money is not a big motivator for, it's nice to have, but I'll tell you, I'm sort of answering what I think will be the next question.

拥有金钱最美好的事情就是我可以用它来帮助他人。在你所称之为的“权力”中，这是一种仁慈的权力。此外，金钱还带来自由，而自由是一件很好的事情。通过金钱或者我的人脉，我能够让生活变得更加简单。就像我们之前谈到的，我认识很多有严重健康问题的人，或者认识那些这样的人，而我可以将他们和可能能够提供帮助的仅有的三个人之一联系起来，当其他人束手无策时，这种帮助显得尤为重要。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

The best thing about having money is that I can use it to do things for other people. And that falls to me under this thing that you're calling power, but benevolent power. But also it gives you freedom and freedom is nice. Freedom is nice. And being able to make, I'm not just making this up, to make life easier by way of money or by way of connections. Like we were talking earlier about, I know a lot of people who either have or know people with serious medical issues and I can connect them to the, like to the one of three people that might actually be able to help them when no one else can.

就像我有一个接一个的故事，但我从不居功。我只是碰巧认识这些小领域里最好的人，这并不是每次都奏效。是的。但很多时候，他们会感叹，哇。是的。我不是医生，我只是个门房。但这个工作的性质让我可以这样做，对吧。我的学位也让我可以这样做。金钱并不能让我做到这一点。对，我的关系网真的很强大。是的，绝对没错。而且能利用它帮助别人也是一种能力，包括在这个播客上邀请像你这样的人来分享，就是其中的一部分。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

Like I've got story after story, but I don't take credit. I just happen to know the best people in these little subdomains and it doesn't always work out that way. Yeah. But a lot of times they're like, wow. Yeah. And so I'm not the physician, I'm just the concierge. But the fact that I have this job allows me to do that. Right. And the degree allows me to do that. Money doesn't allow me to do that. Right. It's just my network is insane. Yeah, no, for sure. And the ability to use it for, to help other people, like, and part of that is having people like you on this podcast, right?

就像我有时和Rob聊天那样，我真是觉得不可思议。我们请到了 Fei-Fei Li，她是我在斯坦福的同事。在斯坦福很难预约到她一小时的时间，但她居然来到这儿，和我们聊了三个小时关于人工智能的话题。而且，我可以把这些分享给全世界。或者把你教的东西分享给全世界。我们的对话不再是散步时的闲聊，而是可以分享给全世界。在我看来，这就是一种力量。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

Like Rob and I sometimes talk, like, I was like, I can't believe it. Like we had like Fei-Fei Li on here. It's a colleague of mine at Stanford. You can't get an hour with her at Stanford, but she came here and talked for three hours about AI. Yeah. Like, and I can share that with the world. Yeah. That, or share what you're teaching to the world. That we're not just having this conversation on a walk. Yeah. And we can share it with the world. That to me is like power.

现在，权力是一种能力，是掌控局面、成为指挥者的能力，也就是说，我要掌握主动权，不受他人权威左右。嗯，这确实挺复杂的，确实是个复杂的问题。不过，你并不是一个充满恶习的人，实际上，在这些方面你没有太大问题。但阿奎那曾建议，当你排除了其他因素后，你发现的可能是让你绊倒的东西，可能会让你分心，远离真正重要的事情。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

Now, power, which is the ability to, to be in charge, to be the maestro, to which is to say, I'm, I'm going to be in charge. I'm not going to be subject to the authority of another person. Oh. That is tricky, which is, which it is tricky to be sure. Now you're not a vice filled person. I mean, you're a person who's actually, you don't have big problems in these, in this regard. But what Aquinas suggested is that when you've eliminated the others, that what you've found is something that might make you stumble and that might distract you from the things that really matter.

这个，这个，这个，是关于你如何在生活中拥有爱的方法。有趣的是，如果我让你从一开始就告诉我你的偶像，你可能不会马上把它缩小到那个特定的点上。是的。因为我认为这是一个非常有趣的练习。显然，我现在是和你一起这样做的，但我希望其他人也能同步进行，因为这就是其真正的意义所在。这不仅仅是关于我和这个例子。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

The, the, the ways that you can actually have love in your life. And what the funny thing about it is that if I said, okay, just tell me your idol from the very beginning, you might not have eliminated it to that particular point. Yeah. Because I think that it's, it's really an interesting exercise. Obviously I'm doing this with you now, but I hope people are doing this in parallel because that's what it's all about. It's not about me and the example.

是的，不，我们，我们希望人们了解他们的偶像。绝对的。就是说，这些词都有很深的含义。是的。金钱、权力、荣誉听起来很酷，直到你认真分析它们，然后你会意识到它们和其他词一样复杂。这就是古代的意义，这也是阿奎那对“荣誉”的理解方式。对吧。这本身并不是一种美德。对，对。所以这些词可以有点误导。我想说的是，在这一切的背景下，我往往很容易出错，这不是为了避免评论。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

Yeah, no, it's, it's, we're, we want people to know their idol. Definitely. Is that the words carry, they're loaded words. Yeah. Money, power, honor sounds actually cool until you really dissect it. And then you realize it's just as, you know, nuanced as the others. That's the ancient, that's how Aquinas would have understood honoris. Yeah. Right. Which is not virtuous inherently. Right. Right. So the words are, are, can be a little misleading. I will say where I've tended to stumble on the backdrop of all this before people, you know, it's not about avoiding the comments.

嗯，事实上，请发表评论。对，完全同意。我们爱他们所有人。而且，像，建议、点赞和分享，不过我只是开玩笑的。别忘了订阅，点击那个订阅按钮。你知道，但重要的一部分还是我对享乐的诱惑非常敏感，我是说，我也是人嘛，我们都是这样的。我一直跌倒的地方在于，当某方面资源过多时，我并不总是考虑到整个需要的过程，虽然我相信自己是出于善意去分享资源的。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

Um, in fact, please comment. Yeah, totally. And we love them all. And, and, and like, and suggest, like, and share, no, I'm just kidding. Don't forget to subscribe. Hit that subscribe button. Is, you know, but a big part of it also is, you know, that of course I'm susceptible to like the lure of pleasure, the lure of, I mean, like I'm human, right? We're all wired for it. Right. The place where I've stumbled consistently is when over-resourced in a particular place, I, I don't always think about what the full arc of requirement is when trying to, I believe in a benevolent way, share resources.

所以，将某个人和另一个人联系起来会更容易，如果事情进展不顺利，可以说“那现在是他们的问题”，而不是继续确保事情顺利进行。因此，我的一个重要领悟是，当我在某个方面资源过于充足时，无论是金钱、精力还是慷慨，我需要小心，因为误解在于，我以为因为我有足够多的资源，就可以随意分享剩下的部分。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

So it's much easier to, to like connect somebody to somebody and then if it's not going well to be like, well, that's their problem now, as opposed to really continuing to, to like make, make sure that happens. Right. So sometimes the, the big learning for me has been whenever over-resourced in any area, whether it's money, energy, generosity, whatever, that I need to be careful because the misperception is that because there's more than enough of it for me, I can just share whatever's left.

好的。但是这里有一种隐藏的成本，那就是确保一切顺利进行的代价。而这种成本是很难量化的。是的。而如今我生活中最痛苦的事情实际上是回到我居住的地方，我的团队知道这点。就好像当我在街上遇到某人，他们会告诉我一些事情，然后想要问我一个问题，因为他们有一个中风的叔叔。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

Right. But there's a hidden cost and it's the cost of making sure that all of that goes smoothly. That's, and that's a cost that's hard to quantify. Yeah. And the most painful thing in my life nowadays is actually pulling back to places where I, I live, my team knows this. It's like, if I meet someone on the street and they are like, they would tell me something and then they want to tell me about, like, they have a question because they have an uncle who has a stroke.

我认识一个很擅长特定类型游泳的人。我可以把我的电话号码给他们。是的，我以前也这样做过，其实我很愿意去帮忙，但之后我发现很难抽出时间来确保，如果他们没有得到反馈，我可以打电话来把双方联系起来。所以，对我来说，最难的部分就是我实在做不到。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

And like, I know a really great person for certain kinds of stroke. I'll take their, I'll give them my phone number. Yeah. I've given up, you know, like I'll do this whole thing, but then later it's very hard to find the time to make sure that if they're not getting feedback that I can do the call where I connect the two. And so there's this, the hardest part for me is I can't do it.

翻译成中文：我从我妈妈那里学到了这一点。她看到街上的流浪汉，当我们还是小孩子时，就发现她把流浪汉安排住进旅馆里。而且我们家车库里也会有一些人住，她就是控制不住自己。虽然现在她改善了很多，但这一切都源于她的善良之心。她想要解决问题，想要让人们不再受苦。顺便说一下，我们的弱点也是我们优点的一部分。正如使徒圣保罗所说，当我软弱时，我就刚强。但同时，当我强壮时，我也可能是软弱的。优点和缺点就像是同一枚硬币的两面。你的弱点，你的偶像，也可能是你最伟大美德的另一面。这就是为什么我们不应该因此而责怪自己。但我们需要知道它到底是什么，因为这通常是让你偏离正轨的原因。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

And I got this from my mom. She sees a homeless person on the street. And when we were kids, we discovered she was putting homeless people up in hotels. Like, and we'd have people living in our garage and like, she can't help herself. Now she's better about it, but it comes from a good place. She wants to fix stuff. She wants to fix stuff. She wants to, yeah. People's suffering is very, very, very hard. And by the way, our vices are our virtues. When I'm weak, then I'm strong, said St. Paul the Apostle. But also when I'm strong, then I'm weak. Our strengths and weaknesses are opposite sides of the same coin. The weakness that you have, the idol that you have, is also the opposite side of the greatest virtue that you possess. So that's one of the reasons that we shouldn't beat ourselves up about this. But we need to know what it actually is because that's what will actually lead you astray a lot of the time.

现在，对我来说完全不同了。首先，我会抛弃权力和控制。其次，我会放弃享乐。我是一个注重规则的人，非常严于律己。每天去健身房，而且饮食非常严格。接下来，我会放弃金钱和资源。我知道这样的说法会引起很多评论。但是那还剩下什么呢？剩下的是荣誉。事实是，我想要人们爱我。我希望得到大家的爱，我真的想要这个。你看，我已经62岁了，但我仍然想要这种感觉。它让人感觉良好，但不只是良好，我就像不是一个"人类存在"，而是一个"人类行动者"。我在努力赢得每个人的爱。这种想法太愚蠢了，我自己也意识到了。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

Now, it's completely different for me. I would kick out power first, control first. The second thing I'd get rid of is pleasure. I'm a protocols guy too. I'm very austere, right? I'm every day in the gym and, you know, I eat a very strict diet and okay. The third thing I would get rid of is money, resources. It's not, I mean, and again, like, let's watch the comments light up. I got it. But what does that leave? That leaves honor. And the truth is, I want people to love me. I want people to love me. I want this. It's so, look, dude, I'm 62 years old and I still want that. It feels good. But it's not even feeling good. It's like, I'm not a human being. I'm a human doing. I'm trying to earn everybody's love. It's so dumb and I recognize it.

现在，这就是力量。这就是力量所在，因为我知道自己在做什么，并且会为此负责，因为我妻子完全没有这种不含糊的态度。她会说，你又在干那蠢事。你为什么要为了陌生人的赞美而忽视真正爱你的人呢？你为什么要去做那些别人希望你做的事情？归根结底，你是想要获得他人的认可。我说，你说得对，这就是重点。重点还在于，这是我的工作，这就是我所研究的内容，但在这方面我确实有些软弱和脆弱。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

Now, that's power. Right there is power because I know when I'm doing it and I'm held accountable for it because my wife does not have this, absolutely have this. And she'll say, you're doing that stupid thing again. You know, why would you marginalize the people that you actually love for the adoration of strangers, for Pete's sake? Why would you go do that thing that, you know, people really want you to do? You want it because you want people to appreciate you is what it comes down to. And I say, you're right, is the whole point. And the whole point is also that this is what I do for a living. This is what I study and I'm weak and I'm frail in this particular right.

当我抗拒那个偶像、与之斗争时，我选择了一条更好的道路，我选择了一片道德追求的空间。这个道德追求的空间就是去爱与被爱。这种道德追求的空间实际上带我去的地方就是去爱与被爱，不是来自陌生人，不是来自人群的声望，也不是来自层级提升的荣誉。我们是一个以亲缘为基础、按等级排列的热带物种，这种动物性的冲动来自于在我们30到50人的采集者群体中上升，这可以追溯到大约25万年前。这一切都是生物学上内在的。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

And when I resist that idol, when I fight against that idol, then I choose the better path and I choose the space of moral aspiration. And that space of moral aspiration is to love and be loved. That's what the space of moral aspiration, that's where it actually takes me to love and be loved, not by the strangers, not the prestige of the crowd, not the, the, the, the, the honor that comes from rising in the hierarchy. We're a tropical kin based species, hierarchically arranged. This, the animal impulse comes from rising in our band of 30 to 50 hundred gatherers, you know, 250,000 years ago. I mean, this is all biologically wired.

但是当我理解这一点时，我真的可以做到像《神曲》中的但丁在《地狱篇》中提到的，他不仅围绕着七宗罪展开讨论，还谈到七种美德。所以说，傲慢和谦逊，对应的是嫉妒和赞美。你真正想要的，深刻地渴望的是这些美德。去爱与被爱意味着你会把时间花在信仰上，爱神明，爱你的家人，无论是亲生的还是领养的，爱你的朋友，那些你真正选择去爱的人，并通过努力工作来服务整个世界，用劳作赚取你应得的成功。信仰、家庭、朋友，这一切才是工作之外真正重要的。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

But when I understand that, then I can actually do what the, what the, the, you know, that Dante in, in the Inferno, um, he, he talks, it's arranged around the seven deadly sins, but he also talks about the seven, um, the heavenly virtues, you know? And so, so pride, humility, right? Envy, admiration. That's what it comes, you know, this, that the heavenly virtue of this is, is the, of, of the four are what you really want, what you truly deeply want in your soul. To love and be loved means that you're spending your time on your faith, the love of the divine, your family, the people that are biologically or by adoption related to you, your friends, the people that you actually choose and serving the whole world through the way that you earn your daily bread, which is to earn your success through your work, faith, family, friends, doesn't work.

只有当你了解那个偶像时，你才能转向你真正灵魂渴求的东西，那是你真正想要的东西。真正的满足感就是在这样的时刻得到的，那是你一直以来想要的满足感。我能问你一个关于喜爱和掌声的问题吗？我感到很尴尬。不是的，其实我也很尴尬。因为揭露自己是很脆弱的，就因为那些词汇，比如权力，像Huberman承认他被驱动，不，不是这样的，我是想要权力。我想帮助别人。不，其实你想掌控你能掌控的东西。我明白了。是的，是的。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

And then only when you know that, uh, that idol, you can pivot to the thing that, that your soul actually wants, the thing that you're actually hunger for. And that's where real satisfaction comes in. That's where you gain the satisfaction that you always wanted. Can I ask you a question about the adoration piece and applause and that kind of thing? So embarrassed. No, well, I'm embarrassed. You know, I, I mean, it's like that it is, it, it, it's a vulnerable place to like reveal. Cause the word is, is, is, are tough, like power, like, you know, like, you know, like Huberman admits that he is driven by, no, it's like, I want to power. I want to help people. No, you want to, you want to have control over what you can control. I got it. Yeah. Yeah.

当你给一个你尊重的观众演讲时，无论他们是谁，你都对他们抱有很高的尊重，这点非常重要。而且你的观众也很喜欢你。当你得到让你满意的反馈时，有人告诉你，你的演讲太出色了，表现得非常完美。当你晚上回到房间时，你会想着这种成就感有多棒吗？还是会想着自己说过的一些想改进的东西呢？你是那种会纠结某一句话说得不太好的人，还是那种陶醉于成功的人？我不会陶醉于其中。实际上，我是自我批判的。我会想着哪里可以做得更好，因为那种感觉很快就会消失，就像夏天的一场雨。陌生人的赞赏在当下是让人愉悦的，但从神经化学的角度来看，这种兴奋感消散得很快。你看，那些对成功极度上瘾的人在脑扫描下是很相似的，就像那些因为吃了高糖碳水化合物或吸食可卡因而兴奋的人一样。在某些小游戏中获胜后的兴奋其实与此相似——当然，我们这里讨论的是多巴胺反应——但那种兴奋感是不会长久的。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

And, um, but so when, let's say you, you give a lecture to, to a group that, um, you respect them as an audience, whoever happens to be there, like you respect your audience, which is so important, you know, like, um, and they love their audience. And they, yeah. And, and, and you, you get the feedback that you really like, you've knocked it out of the park. Yeah. You knocked it out of the park. When you go back to your room at night, are you the sort of person that thinks about, um, that and how great it feels? Or are you thinking about this one thing that you said that you wish you had done differently? Are you the, like the one, the one thing that I wish I hadn't said kind of person, or are you the, or are you like basking in it? No, I'm not basking in it. I mean, I'm actually self-critical. I'm thinking about what it could be differently because it wears off and it's evanescent. It's like a summer rain, you know, the adoration of strangers feels good in the moment. I mean, in, in neurochemically it, it wears off very quickly, of course, because what you're getting is, you know, when, when you look at people who are deeply addicted to success, it looks very much in, in, in under brain scans to people who are actually getting highly glycemic carbohydrate treats, or even a hit of cocaine, you know, you win in some little game and, and, you know, and we're obviously, we were talking about dopamine here is you actually see it's the same thing, but that doesn't last.

那不应该持续，它应该逐渐消退。作为一个上瘾者，最想要的就是再来一次，不管是一条可卡因还是另一轮掌声。所以当我回到酒店的时候，我会觉得，是的，我做得有些不同，确实如此。但最终的关键是，我们必须知道解决办法是什么。解决办法不是认为自己是个可怕的人，而是转向选择成为我想成为的那种人。你知道，我不会屈从于动物本能而躲在被窝里过了4:30。我想成为的那个男人在4:45就已经在健身房了，早上4:45。是的，没错。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

That's not supposed to last. That's supposed to wear away. And the first thing that somebody wants, who's an addict is another hit, whether it's a line of cocaine or another round of applause. So by the time I'm back in the hotel, I'm like, yeah, I kind of did that different. Yeah, yeah, for sure. Actually what it comes down to, but by the way, we got to know what the solution is to this. And the solution to this is not to say, okay, I'm a horrible human being, but it's actually to pivot to choosing the path of the man that I want to be. You know, I, I, I don't give into the animal impulse to stay under the covers past 430. The man that I want to be is down in the gym by 445. 445 AM. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's right.

好的。我的意思是，当我在反思自己做错的事情，自责，或者渴望别人的掌声时，我希望自己成为一个沉浸在祈祷中的人。因为我知道，我的精神状态很大程度上取决于此，这是我可以做出的选择。关于我们钦佩的人，我有一个问题。我不想用“偶像”这个词，但是在我们认识的人当中，你能说出一些在世或已故的人，他们体现或集体体现了你想成为的样子吗？还是说你不把人归入那个类别？因为我在讨论关于力量的问题时意识到，我总是有一个名单，上面列着我非常欣赏的职业、艺术和音乐的人。在审视这个名单时，我有时试着找出他们之间的共通之处。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the, the man that I want to be, um, when I'm either thinking about something I did wrong and I'm beating myself up or, you know, wishing there was another round of applause is somebody who's deep in prayer. That's the man that I want to be because I do know that, that my metaphysical fitness depends on this. And that's a choice that I can actually make. I have a question about, um, who we, I don't want to say idolize, but among humans, can you name people alive or dead that, um, sort of embody or collectively sort of embody who you aspire to be like, or do you not put humans in that category? Because one thing that I realized in this discussion around power and I'm not trying to soften anything around that is I've always had this list of people who's got careers and art and music and stuff I really admire. And in looking over that list, I try and like sometimes see like the through lines.

好的。我可以告诉你，几乎所有这些人都基于他们的过去、他们的环境等等，带来了独特的东西，从而改变了规则。对我来说，这就是一种极致。在我们的行业中，人们思维方式不同，范式发生改变。是的，这就像改变了游戏规则。对我而言，这是一个非常重要的时刻，我可以回顾科学史以及一些在早期阶段的神经生物学家，比如拉蒙·卡哈尔，你可以说他改变了游戏，因为他基本上创建了这个游戏，切割大脑来理解功能。然而，在我活跃的实验室研究生涯中，也出现过一些人，他们真的改变了规则。我会问自己，他们是如何以及为什么改变规则的？

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

Right. And I can tell you that almost all of them brought together unique things based on their past, their circumstances, et cetera, to, to like change the game. Yeah. Like to me, that's kind of the ultimate. Yeah. I know. It's like, in our business. Yeah. People think differently. The paradigm change. Yeah. Right. It's like to change the game. Yeah. Like, um, and it, for me, this is a very important, like time space dilation where I can look back on the history of science and the couple of neurobiologists who were there at the beginning, like Ramone Cajal, you'd say he changed the game because he kind of like made the game. Right. He created the game, basically slicing up brains and understanding function. But like, but a few people came along, even in my career, in the time of my active lab career. And I was like, they really changed the game. And then I asked myself, why did, how and why did they change the game?

你会意识到每种技术都是短暂的，因为它们几乎总是会被替代。所以你开始意识到，哦，那一直是一种独特的艺术家、科学家和诗人间的交汇点。我意识到，哦，那就是关键所在。对吧，有些人不拘一格，因为他们找到了一个独特的交汇。对我来说，追求这种独特性远比所谓的权力重要得多。是的，这就像是能够说“我做到了，不是按照别人的方式，而是按照我的方式”。这是一种独特的表达，这种表达只能由我实现。所以我不是在和某种体系或其他人竞争。这对我来说超越了你所描述的四个偶像。我完全明白，因为那就是胜利，那就是你敬佩的，那也是我真正敬佩的，那是一种理想的状态，那才是真正的成功，那就是对你来说卓越的意义。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

And you realize that every technique is fleeting because it gets replaced almost always. Right. And so you start to realize that, oh, like it was always this unique kind of like artist, scientist, poet intersection. And I realized like, oh, that that's like, that's the thing. Right. There's people that are like outside the box because they found a unique confluence of things. Right. Striving for that. Yeah. That is way more important to me than quote unquote power. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's like to be able to say like, I did it not my way, not their way, but I did it my way, period. Right. Like a unique expression that could only have been me coming out of me. And I don't. And so I'm not in competition with, with some, with some structure or with other people. That to me is above the four idols that you described. No, I get it. I completely do. Because it's like, like that's like winning. That's what you admire. That's what I really admire. That's kind of like an ideal type. That's what it actually means to be successful. That's what it means to be a success. And that's what excellence means to you.

这实际上就是卓越的化身——那种智力上的创业精神。是的。这几乎就像是一种从领导到另一种形式的转换。实际上，我并不关心成为领导者，我也不想当董事长，比如说我不想经营企业和我的播客。我让别人去做，因为他比我做得好多了。我感兴趣的是置身其外，但仍然能够完全自由地行事。是的，我无法领导，因为我不能教别人如何成为我，因为他们有自己的独特个性。我只能给他们一些建议，帮助他们找到自己的道路，但那更像是他们的内在过程。因此，对我来说，那就是终极。当我想到拉蒙·卡哈尔（Ramon y Cajal）时，他是一个很好的例子。他是有史以来最伟大的神经生物学家，成就非常巨大。他也非常喜欢举重，还是一位艺术家——他绘制了大脑的图像，并从死去的组织中推断其功能。真是一个了不起的人。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

That's the, that's the personification of excellence is actually that kind of intellectual entrepreneurship. Yeah. It's almost like it moves from the, cause you said like to lead. Yeah. I actually am not concerned with leading. I also didn't want to be a chairman, right? Like I don't want to run the businesses, my podcast. I let someone else do that. He's way better at it than I could ever be. It's what I'm interested in is being outside of that, but still ethically completely free. Yeah. Like, yeah, I can't lead because I can't show anyone how to be me because they're them. Yeah. I can show them how to, I can get some ideas about how they can be them, but that's like an internal process for them. So that to me is like the ultimate. When I think about Ramon y Cahal is a good example, who, by the way, the greatest neurobiologist of all time ever by, by huge, huge margin. Also is like really into weightlifting. He was an artist. Like he was an incredible, like he drew images of the brain and inferred from that function from dead tissue. Amazing. Amazing, amazing human being.

就像他是独一无二的。他兴趣的交汇点包括体能锻炼、神经解剖学和艺术，这才造就了今天的拉蒙·卡哈尔。没有其他人能做到这一点。所以我不想成为像他那样的人，因为他已经做到最好了。你为什么要成为像他那样的人呢？那很无趣。你想要像他一样出色，但你要成为你自己，比如成为安德鲁·胡伯曼。完全同意。在我看来，独特的表现就像，我们最终会谈到上帝和信仰，因为那是我们第一次在斯坦福面对面沟通时的主题，我们非常公开地探讨了科学和信仰。在我看来，也许我误解了这个意思，但我觉得这就是上帝对我们的期望，无论是在生活的哪个领域。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

Like he's an N of one. Yeah. But it was the confluence of his interest in physical exercise and neuroanatomy and art that made him Ramon y Cahal. No one else can do that. Yeah. Right? Like, so I don't want to be like him. No, I got it. Because he did it the best. Like, why would you want to be like him? Yeah. Boring. You want to be excellent like him, but as Andrew Huberman. Exactly. No, I completely got it. To me, the unique expression and like, you know, we'll, I think we'll eventually get to notions of like, not notions, we'll talk a little bit about God and faith. Because that's actually where you and I connected in person for the first time, was talking at Stanford about science and faith. Very openly. Very openly. But that to me feels, I could be misinterpreting the message, but I feel like that's what God wants for all of us, whether it's end in the different domains of, of life.

是的。当然，我们要遵循伦理，比如说有规则和结构是我们必须遵守的，但我们的独特表达，我觉得这就是我们存在的意义。我告诉自己是这样的。对，我完全同意你的看法。有人常问我，谁是你的英雄？我也不太清楚。我爸爸吧。你说耶稣。耶稣，是的，我明白。意思是，你觉得谁是英雄？但这不像是某种英雄之旅，也不是我们在这里讨论的荣格原型之类的。我也为此挣扎过。但是，我确实看到一些我非常敬佩的人，正是因为这个原因。因此，在我的领域里，我非常敬佩的人之一是杰出的社会科学家詹姆斯·Q·威尔逊。你知道他吗？

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

Yeah. And of course, adhering to ethics, like there are rules, there are structures we have to obey within that, but our unique expression, I feel like that's why we're here. Yeah. I tell myself this anyway. No, like, I completely agree with you. And, you know, so people often ask, so who, who's your hero? I don't know. I don't know. My dad, you know. You're like Jesus. You say Jesus. Jesus. Yeah, I know. It's like, I mean, it's like, who's your hero? But it's like, no, I mean, Jesus is the master, but the hero, it's like the hero. No, it's not like some sort of hero's journey, some Jungian, you know, archetype that we're talking about here. I struggle with that as well. But I do see people that I deeply admire precisely for this, for this reason. So somebody I really admire, the guy in my field, the social scientist par excellence is James Q. Wilson. You know, James Q. Wilson.

詹姆斯·Q·威尔逊，是一位获得国会荣誉勋章的人，这对一位社会科学家来说相当不容易。你知道，他还活着吗？不，他在2012年去世了。他被认为是20世纪最伟大的政治科学家之一。我曾与他认识，他曾参与我论文答辩的旁听，而那次答辩进行得非常糟糕。说实话，那场面很艰难，我面前有两位诺贝尔经济学奖得主，还有詹姆斯·Q·威尔逊。我超级紧张，而我的论文也不是特别出色。但最后还是得到了签名，这也算是成绩了。威尔逊后来告诉我，他曾写过一些意义非凡的书，比如《道德感》一书。这是首次有社会科学家利用基于调查的实证社会科学工具，去理解和量化我们实际拥有的复杂道德感。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

James Q. Wilson, who won the Congressional Medal of Honor, which is pretty hard to do as a social scientist for, you know. Is he still alive? No, he died in 2012. And he was the greatest political scientist of the 20th century. And somebody I knew, he sat in on my dissertation defense, which went very poorly. I mean, it was rough, man. I had two Nobel Prize winners in economics and James Q. Wilson. I was super nervous, and it was not a great dissertation. It got signatures. So that's the scoreboard effect on that. That's all I can say. He passed. But he said to me after that, you know, he had written monumental books. He had done works. He had written a great book called The Moral Sense. That was the first time that a social scientist had actually used the tools of empirical social science survey-based data to understand the moral sensibilities, the complex moral sensibilities that they actually possessed. And just quantifying it.

我读了那篇文章，我说，我就是想做这个。我想做这个。但我不想成为詹姆斯·Q·威尔逊，我想成为亚瑟·布鲁克斯，以我自己的方式去做。他说，在我论文答辩时，说得不错，你会没事的。你需要帮助的时候，给我打电话。几年后，我在雪城大学担任助理教授的时候，写了我的第一本商业书，关于慈善捐赠。出乎意料地，这本书改变了我的人生，因为总统读了它，并提到了这本书。突然间，我的职业生涯被彻底改变了，有好有坏。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

And I read that. I said, I just want to do that. I want to do that. I don't want to be James Q. Wilson, though. I want to be Arthur Brooks, you know, and doing it in my own way. And he said, you know, at my dissertation defense, he said, you know, nice try. You're going to be fine. When you need something, give me a call. And so some years later, I was an assistant professor at Syracuse at the time. And I wrote my first commercial book, my first trade book. And it was about charitable giving. And it actually changed my life because the president read it for some odd reason and talked about it. And then suddenly I was, my career was changed forever as a result of that, for better and for worse.

当我在进行这个项目时，我写信给詹姆斯·Q·威尔逊，说：「你能读一下这份手稿吗？」他回答：「当然可以。」于是我把手稿寄给了他。他说：「你知道吗，我本来打算写一本关于这个主题的书，但你已经写出来了，所以我不用再写了。我来为你的书写前言吧。」这真是太棒了，难以置信。之后，他邀请我成为美国企业研究所的会长，因为他是那里的董事会成员之一。他一直在董事会任职，直到去世。我也有幸在他的葬礼上致辞，葬礼在哈佛大学的纪念教堂举行。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

But when I was working on it, I wrote to James Q. Wilson and I said, would you read this manuscript? And he said, sure. I sent it to him. And he said, you know, I was going to write a book on this, but you've written. I don't have to. I'll write the foreword. Awesome. Unbelievable. Yeah. Unbelievable. Later, he recruited me to be the president of the American Enterprise Institute because he was on the board of that. And he was on the board until he passed away. And then I spoke at his funeral. I had the honor of speaking at his funeral at the Memorial Chapel at Harvard where his funeral was held.

这是一个特别的人，他与众不同。我也想成为一名社会科学家，但我并不想完全像他，也不去研究他所研究的东西，而是想拥有一种强烈的好奇心，并完全为了公众利益而运用科学的方法。这就是我想做的，也是激励我的原因。因此，他算是我的偶像吧，但更确切地说，是我对他的钦佩，因为他完全活出了生命的意义。我认为，活出生命的意义是我们每个人的命运。每个关注我们、倾听我们的人都有自己的使命，而我们的命运就是找到这份使命，做到优秀，并用它来服务他人。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

And it was just this guy, he was one of a kind. And I want to be a social scientist, too, but not just like him, not even studying the same things that he does, but to have this intense curiosity and using the tools of science completely in the public interest. That's what I want to do. And so that's what inspires me. So my hero, I guess, but it's the admiration that I have because he was fully alive. He was fully alive in the way that I think that it was his destiny to be in all of us. And everybody watching us, like everybody watching us and listening to us has got their thing. That's what our destiny is, to actually find that thing and be truly excellent and use it to serve.

尽你所能，在做石膏板安装工、餐厅厨师和大学教授的工作中做到优秀。上帝不允许为公共利益而成为政客，更不用说为私利服务。但是，向人们展示这是一种爱的表达。这么说吧，这种方式是神圣的。在《创世纪》中，上帝创造了天地，那是他的工作，是他爱的一种表达。这也正是你我可以做到的。这也是你所做的。顺便说一句，你受欢迎不仅仅是因为你工作出色，当然更因为你希望每个人都能得到最好的，因为这个播客是对Andrew Huberman爱的一种表达。这就是它成功的原因。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

Be as excellent as you can possibly be in being a drywall hanger and being a cook at a restaurant and being a college professor. God forbid being a politician in the public interest, in the private interest, in showing people that this is an expression of your love. You see, in this way, it's godly in this way. You know, in the book of Genesis, it's, you know, God created heaven and earth. That was his gig. That was his job. And it was an expression of his love. This is what you and I can do. This is what you do. This is, by the way, you're popular because you're good at your job, for sure. But because you want the best for everybody, because this podcast is an expression of Andrew Huberman's love. That's why it's successful.

每个人都可以以自己的方式取得成功，比如像有自己的Huberman播客一样，尽管不一定是在播客领域，而是通过把它当作你对人性的爱的表达，通过你赚取日常收入的方式来实现。在我看来，这是卓越的典范。你同意吗？完全同意。而且，我意识到这个问题出在词汇上，可能是我对“权力”这个词有些介意。我在努力不让它被误解。这其实是语言的问题。不，不，不。今天我选择接受它。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

And everybody can be successful in their way, can be, you know, have their own Huberman podcast, not in podcasting necessarily, by actually having it be an expression of your love. Love for humanity through the way that you're earning your daily bread. That's the quintessential expression of excellence, in my view. Does that accord with yours? Very much so. And, you know, it occurs to me, like, you know, and maybe I'm a little bit bothered by this word power. Yeah. And I'm striving for it to not be misconstrued. It's the language is the problem. No, no, no, no. I just, I mean, but I'm embracing it today.

对我来说，我刚刚意识到终极的成功是这样的：在这个播客中，我真正想做的是学习。我喜欢学习，当我发现一些对别人有用的东西时，我就分享出来。对我来说，最让我感到满足的是，如果这些内容可以帮助人们改变他们的行为，并让他们在心理上、身体上或者两者上都能过得更好。同时，他们也理解为什么这些改变会产生这样的效果，然后他们继续传递给别人。而且，这过程中无需特意提到我是来源，这是不需要的。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

But what, to me, the ultimate win I realized a few moments ago is, like, what I'm really trying to do in this podcast thing is I love learning. And when I find something that I think can be of use to people, I teach it because what's most satisfying to me is if people change their behavior and it leads them to a better place mentally, physically, or both, right? And then they also understand why it did that. And then they pass it along. Like, and there's no need for attribution in that, right? There's no need for attribution.

我希望，就像我有一些朋友是演员，还有一些朋友是音乐家一样，我想他们一定很热爱表演和演奏音乐。这样的人给我的生活带来了极大的丰富。我热爱音乐，热爱电影，作为一个观众，我喜欢这些艺术形式。但我也听他们说过类似这样的话，比如，你可以让观众投入其中，可以激励他们。我认为，从根本上说，这就是我们所追求的：我们都想找到自己热爱的事情，并向外界展示。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

And I hope that, like, I have a few friends who are actors, a few friends who are musicians, and I have to imagine that they love acting and playing music. And those sorts of people provide incredible enrichment to my life. I love music. I love film and as a consumer. But I've heard them say things like, yeah, you know, like, you can transport somebody. You can inspire them. And I think ultimately that's what it's about is, like, I think that we do at our best, I think we all want to find the thing that we love to do, put it out there.

我觉得我们有一种感觉，这种影响可以不署名地传播开来。对我来说，这就是终极的力量，对吧？完全没错。我想培养传播快乐的老师。我希望人们去当老师，因为这是杠杆。我想要一个更美好的世界。我想用这些理念来提升人们的生活。我没法一个人做到这一切。我们之所以有麦克风和摄像机，就是为了将这些影响扩散到更远的地方。完全正确。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

And I think we have this sense that it could possibly ripple through time without attribution. To me, that's, like, the ultimate power, right? Totally. I want to create happiness teachers. I want people to go be teachers because that's leverage. I want a better world. I want to lift people up with these ideas. I can't do it by myself. Well, the only reason we have, like, the microphones and the cameras are here, right, is to ripple it out further. Totally.

这些东西字面上可以说，嗯，你知道，它们确实能够放大各种事物，对吧？所以，嗯，对，通过空间放大信息的最佳方式就是互联网，对吧。通过时间放大的最佳方式可能也是互联网。但我认为真正巩固这一切的方法是教会人们一些东西，以他们能理解底层过程的方式，这样他们就能够明白一点，对吧。这样他们就能传递这两方面的内容。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

These are literally, you know, they literally amplify things, right? So, but, yeah, the best way to amplify through space is the Internet. Right. The best way to amplify through time might be the Internet. But the way to really reinforce that whole thing is to teach people things, I believe, in a way that they understand the process underneath so that a little bit of it. Right. So that they can, and they pass both things along.

好的。这就是为什么我认为，像现在，我可以随便上一个网站，查找“人们在临终时认为幸福的十个关键是什么”的列表。尽管如此，人们还是选择了解事情背后的原理。我确信这是因为人类大脑有一种特性：当我们了解激发某种事物的原理时，就会产生认同感。对，这就是我们的“入场券”，让事情变得有价值的原因。这就是在获得回报前所付出的努力。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

Right. This is why I think, like, because nowadays, like, I could go on any website and just go, what are the 10 top things that people on their deathbed say are keys to happiness? And I can get a list, but people choose to listen to the mechanics of it because there's something about the human brain, I'm certain, that when we understand a bit about the mechanics that gives rise to that thing, that's our buy-in. Yeah. That's the cost of admission. That's right. And then it becomes worth something. That's the effort that comes before the reward.

是的，你知道医学院里常说的一句话，斯坦福医学院也常说，要成为一名外科医生，你需要先看一次，然后自己做一次，再教会别人。看一次，做一次，教一次。实际上，学习的过程就是这样，有很多关于人们如何学习的研究就证明了这一点。人们学习得最好的方式是：首先，他们需要了解某件事情是怎么运作的，然后他们需要实际去练习，最后，他们需要教别人。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

Yeah, well, you know what they say in medical schools, they say at the Stanford Medical School, to become a surgeon, you need to watch one, do one, teach one. Watch one, do one, teach one. And, you know, the truth is that the process of learning, and, you know, there's a ton of research on how people learn. And the way that people learn best is that they have to learn how something works, then they have to actually practice it, then they actually have to teach it.

我爸爸是一位数学教授，他还是个出色的生物统计学家。有一次，我看到他作为数学教授讲高级微积分的课，他足足讲了90分钟，全程没有用任何讲稿。这情景就像在观看小提琴大师雅沙·海菲茨的演出。当时我已经足够成熟，能对他心生敬佩。我那时二十多岁，那是在他去世之前。他去世得很早，而我直到那时还在二十多岁，他还在教学。我对他说：“爸爸，你刚才真是大师级的表现，你是怎么做到的？”他说：“我已经这样做过上百次了。”

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

So my dad was a math professor. He was a brilliant biostatistician. And I one time watched him as a math professor giving an advanced calculus lecture and 90 minutes, no notes. It was like watching Yasha Heifetz. And I was old enough that I had admiration for him. I was in my 20s. It was before he died. He died young. But I was still in my 20s, and he was still going. And I said, Dad, I was like, that was a virtuoso performance. How'd you do it? He said, I've done it hundreds of times.

他说，这个过程很简单。你要真正了解发生了什么，看看证据，欣赏其中的科学。然后你要做大量的练习题。最后，你还要一遍又一遍地解释它。同样的道理也适用于高尔夫，适用于讲西班牙语，适用于了解如何过上更好的生活。你需要了解其中的科学原理。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

And he said, the process is simple. You learn actually what's happening. You look at the proof. You admire the science. And then you actually do a ton of problems. And then finally, you explain it over and over and over and over again. And the same thing is true for golf. And the same thing is true for speaking Spanish. And the same thing is true for understanding how to live a better life. You need to know the science.

我对科学如此着迷，并且想在我的播客中每周谈论它的原因是：理解科学真是太酷了。当你理解了科学，你就更有可能改变自己的习惯。然后，你也更有可能将知识传播和分享给他人。这样一来，你就会成为这方面的高手，并且真的能够保持这个循环不断。这是一种神奇的现象，就像一个奇迹，这就是我们实际做到的方式。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

The reason that I'm so fascinated with the science and I want to talk about it in my podcast every week is like it's so cool when you understand the science. Then you're more likely to change your habits. And then you're more likely to spread it and share it with other people, in which case you will be a virtuoso in it. And you'll actually keep the cycle unbroken. That's magic. That's like it's a complete miracle that that's actually how we do it.

我们现在有这样一个时刻，这个奇妙的时刻，你我可以真正谈论严肃的科学。当然，这不是在斯坦福或哈佛的博士研讨会。但我们聊的是真正的科学。观众们会觉得，嗯，他们在学到一些东西。有人可能会去查阅PubMed。我们会提供节目笔记等等。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

And we have this moment, this miraculous moment where you and I can actually talk about serious science. We're not, I mean, this is not a doctoral seminar at Stanford or Harvard, to be sure. But we're talking about the real thing. And people who watch this are like, yeah, that's like, you know, they're learning some things. And they're going to go to, someone's going to go to PubMed. And we're going to have show notes and the whole thing.

然后我们来谈谈它。这是你如何使用它的方法。好的，所以当你去海滩时，确保你是和朋友们一起去的。然后呢，你的书叫做《协议》，是有原因的，里面有几百页的脚注。现在去分享它吧。你知道有多少次人们告诉我：“嘿，你知道关于咖啡的事吗？你应该等90分钟，因为咖啡因分子会阻塞A2A腺苷受体，这样下午两点就不会崩溃了。”我心想，是的，我知道你是从哪儿听来的。我知道你是从安德鲁那里听来的，但你没提到他，因为他们不知道自己是从你那儿偷来的。但整个重点是，因为我们所做的事情，世界会变得更好。这是我们如何用实际行动祝福这个世界。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

And then we talk about it. Here's how you use it. Okay. So when you go to the beach, make sure that you're going to a beach with friends. And here's your, and your book is called Protocols for a Reason with several hundred pages of footnotes. Right now go share it. You know how many times people have told me, Hey, you know what about coffee? You should wait for 90 minutes because you know, the caffeine molecule, the caffeine molecule blocks the A2A adenosine receptors and you won't get to crash at two in the afternoon. I'm like, yeah, I know where you got that. I know where you got that. You got that from Andrew and without attribution because they don't know they got it from you. But the whole point is the world's better. The world is better. That's how we can bless the world with what we actually do.

这真是太棒了。我想在这里稍作休息并感谢我们的赞助商之一，Element。Element是一款电解质饮料，它包含你所需的一切，同时没有你不需要的成分。这意味着它含有电解质、钠、镁和钾，并且比例正确，但没有添加糖。适当的水合作用对于大脑和身体功能至关重要。即使是轻微的脱水也可能降低你的认知和身体表现。获得足够的电解质同样重要。电解质中的钠、镁和钾对于你身体中所有细胞的功能至关重要，特别是你的神经元或神经细胞。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

And that's so great. I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, Element. Element is an electrolyte drink that has everything you need and nothing you don't. That means the electrolytes, sodium, magnesium, and potassium, all in the correct ratios, but no sugar. Proper hydration is critical for brain and body function. Even a slight degree of dehydration can diminish your cognitive and physical performance. It's also important that you get adequate electrolytes. The electrolytes, sodium, magnesium, and potassium are vital for the functioning of all cells in your body, especially your neurons or your nerve cells.

喝Element让确保你摄取足够的水分和电解质变得很容易。我的一天通常开始得很快，这意味着我必须马上投入到工作或锻炼中。因此，为了确保我有足够的水分和电解质，当我早上醒来时，我会喝16到32盎司的水，并在里面溶解一包Element。我在进行任何形式的锻炼时，也会在水中加入Element，尤其是在炎热出汗较多的日子，以补充流失的水分和电解质。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

Drinking Element makes it very easy to ensure that you're getting adequate hydration and adequate electrolytes. My days tend to start really fast, meaning I have to jump right into work or right into exercise. So to make sure that I'm hydrated and I have sufficient electrolytes, when I first wake up in the morning, I drink 16 to 32 ounces of water with an Element packet dissolved in it. I also drink Element dissolved in water during any kind of physical exercise that I'm doing, especially on hot days when I'm sweating a lot and losing water and electrolytes.

Element有很多非常美味的口味，事实上，我都很喜欢。其中包括西瓜、覆盆子、柑橘，而我尤其喜欢柠檬水味道。所以如果你想尝试Element，可以访问drinkelement.com斜杠Huberman，购买任意产品即可领取免费的Element样品包。再次提醒，网址是drinkelement.com斜杠Huberman，可以领取免费的样品包。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

Element has a bunch of great tasting flavors. In fact, I love them all. I love the watermelon, the raspberry, the citrus, and I really love the lemonade flavor. So if you'd like to try Element, you can go to drinkelement.com slash Huberman to claim a free Element sample pack with any purchase. Again, that's drinkelement.com slash Huberman to claim a free sample pack.

所以我们经历了享受、满足和意义。我们经历了享受和满足，但还没有完全理解意义。是的，我们还没有完全理解意义。那么，告诉我们更多关于意义的事情吧。因此，我们识别了偶像。是的，我们识别了偶像。这些是需要注意的事物，因为它们会阻碍你的满足感，它们承诺带来满足感，但实际上并不会实现。它们不会带来你所追求的满足感，但你的大脑会让你相信它们会。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

So we got through enjoyment, satisfaction, and meaning. We got through enjoyment, satisfaction, not meaning. Well, we have not gotten all the way through meaning. Yeah, we haven't got through meaning. But we, so tell us more about meaning. So we got the idols. Yeah, yeah, we got the idols. So those are the things to be aware of and kind of- That will block your satisfaction, that they promise satisfaction, they don't deliver. They won't deliver the satisfaction that you seek, but your brain tells you that they will.

这会让你进入我们社区称为“享乐跑步机”的状态。享乐简单来说就是感受，或者用你的话来说，就是边缘系统中的活动。而那个“跑步机”指的是边缘系统会进行重置，因为情绪并不是为了让你度过愉快的一天，而是为了给你提供关于威胁和机会的信号，好让你做出反应，并且这些情绪会立即重置。你总是以为它们会永远持续下去，因此你有动机去避免或者接近某些事物。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

That will put you on what we, in my community, call the hedonic treadmill. Hedonic simply means feelings, or in your vernacular, is activity in the limbic system. And the treadmill means that the limbic system resets because emotions are not there to give you a nice day. They give you a set of signals about threats and opportunities so you can react, and they reset immediately. You always think they're going to last forever, so you have an incentive to either avoid or approach things.

这是你现在不太常见的一种情形，但以前有一个车贴这样写：拥有最多玩具死去的人就是赢家。对吧。这个让我想起了对于数量的追求。我可以和你分享一下这个想法吗？当然，当然，分享吧。这并不是我原创的观点，而是来自斯坦福大学的安娜·莱姆克博士。我邀请过她上我的播客，她真的很出色。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

This is the, you don't see it much anymore, but there used to be a bumper sticker out there that said that the person who dies with the most toys wins. Yeah, right. It's that one, which reminds me about quantification. Can I share this with you? Yeah, yeah, please do. It's not my original idea, but Anna Lemke, Dr. Anna Lemke at Stanford. She's been on, I've had her on my podcast, and yeah, she's fantastic.

是的，她很了不起。她告诉我，有一种非常有趣的方式看待行为，就是观察这个人是否倾向于非常仔细地量化这种行为，并且对这些东西极为珍视。她说，成瘾者会不断地查看自己有多少药片、多少包；那些对赚钱着迷，甚至可能上瘾的人，也会不断检查他们拥有多少。每天都会查看自己的投资组合。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

Yeah, she's amazing. She told me that there's something interesting, one particularly interesting lens on any behavior is whether the person tends to quantify that behavior very carefully and kind of covet the thing. She said addicts will constantly check back and see how many pills they have, how many bags they have, how many people who are obsessed, perhaps even addicted to making money, will constantly check how much they have. Check your portfolio every single day.

这句话可以翻译为：虽然表面上是为了追求安全感，但实际上与安全感无关。大脑的边缘系统非常擅长在各种情况下计算得失，比如制作清单和量化数据。所以我们要非常小心，这并不是说不要追踪你的睡眠或者心率变异性。不过，这确实可能会成为一个问题。我自己是一周检查一次。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

And it's cloaked as the need to feel safe, but it has nothing to do with that. It's the limbic system is very, very good at charting profits and losses in whatever context, like making lists, quantification. So we have to be very, this is not a call to not track your sleep or something or your HRV. But by the way, it can be a problem. It can be a problem. I check it once a week.

健身追踪器。我每周会根据笔记本中的一条主观短线检查我的睡眠，或者检查你的步数或心率变异性等等。是的，是的。所以无论如何，这是一件即使在神经生物学界我们也很少听到的事情，那就是边缘系统喜欢量化。如果我们在生活的某个领域达到极端量化，无论是生活、行为还是痴迷，这很可能——虽然不是总是，但很可能反映出这种健康行为已经变成了一种痴迷或完全的成瘾，我觉得这真的很有趣。这真是太有趣了。那么，边缘系统实际上是想通过这种量化表达的控制来做什么呢？

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

Fitness tractors. I check my sleep once a week against a subjective quick line in my notebook. Or your steps or your HRV or – Yeah. Yeah. So anyway, it's something that we don't hear often enough, even in the neurobiology crowd, that the limbic system loves to quantify. And if we get to the extreme of quantification in a given area, of life, of behavior, of obsession, it very likely, not always, but very likely reflects that that healthy behavior has become either an obsession or a full-blown addiction, which I find really interesting. That's so interesting. Very interesting. So what are we actually – what is the limbic system actually trying to do with that kind of control that's expressed through quantification?

永远不经历失落。这就像是——永远不经历失落。这并不是得到了更多。对，这是种错觉，让你觉得得到了更多。其实，你是在通过告诉自己拥有这些来对抗损失。这基于损失规避。这是损失规避。对，谢谢。是的，这基于损失规避。我说，这很有趣。她说，我问你什么意思。她说，哦，是的，就像那些沉迷于某些镇静剂或止痛药的人一样，他们会把药物排成一排数个不停。这是一个非常病态的例子，非常悲惨，因为他们往往因此而不幸去世。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

Never experience the drop. It's like a way of – Never experience the drop. It's not getting more of. Right. It's an illusion that you're getting more of. It's – it's – it's – right. You're working against losses by telling yourself you have this. It's based on loss aversion. It's – loss aversion. Yeah. Thank you. Yes. It's based on loss aversion. Yeah. And I said, it's funny. She said, I said, what do you mean? She said, oh, yeah, like people who are like addicted to like certain kinds of barbiturates or painkillers or whatever will like line them up and like look at them and count them. There's a very pathologic instance of this, which is very tragic too, because they often die, sadly.

但真正的厌食症的一个标志性特征是，大脑的奖励回路发生变化，以至于对食物的厌恶反而变得让人觉得有满足感，这种情况可能最终导致致命的结果。患有真正厌食症的人可以通过看食物来判断热量、脂肪和蛋白质的含量，他们就像是拥有计算能力的视觉计算器。在他们看来，避免食物就像是一种成瘾行为，他们的大脑奖励机制被彻底颠倒，这是所有精神障碍中最致命的一种。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

But one of the hallmark traits of like true anorexia is that these reward circuits become such that the aversion of food becomes rewarding, which is, you know, deadly in its ultimate form. And people with true anorexia can look at an article of food and they have a calculator that can tell you within a very small margin, how many calories, how much fat, how much protein that they know they can – they're like visual computers when it comes to food. Right. And food aversion, avoiding that stuff becomes their – it's like the addiction, the pleasure pathways get all inverted and they – it's the most deadly of the psychiatric disorders.

这是一种极端病态的情况。但她说，那些看起来无法整理好自己生活的海洛因成瘾者，实际上可以精确地告诉你他们有多少海洛因，以及他们认为会得到多少，并且对许多事情有清晰的计算能力——他们通常数学很好。你知道，他们懂得——你知道。所以量化是这些奖励和强化机制的一个明显特征。我觉得这可能是一个有趣的点。这真的很有趣，而且我们对此的讨论很不够。所以，当我在思考某件事是否是成瘾、强迫行为、不健康或健康追求时，我会思考自己多么精确地量化每一个细节。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

That's an extreme pathological case. But she said heroin addicts who you would think can't get their life together can tell you exactly how much heroin they have and how much they think they're going to get, how much things – they're often very good at math. You know, they understand – you know. And so quantification is kind of a hallmark feature of these rewards, these reinforcement circuitries. I thought perhaps that's an interesting point. That's very interesting. That I don't think we discuss enough. Yeah. So when I think about whether something is an addiction, a compulsion, unhealthy or healthy pursuit, like how tightly am I quantifying every little bit of it?

我还能得到多少呢？想着我已经做过的事情，你知道的。这是个问题。我的简历上有多少篇文章？我们总是在量化我们的成功，不是为了自我表扬，而是确保自己没有落后。没错。我记得这个——关于社交媒体上的关注者，我确实觉得社交媒体平台也故意引入了这种模式。是的。点赞的数量可能会有一定的激励作用。关注者的数量也是如此，人们一直在关注其增加或减少的情况，他们非常在意这些。没错，绝对是这样的。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

And how much more can I get? And thinking about what I've done, like, you know. Yeah. How many articles are on my Vita? You know, whatever – you know, because we quantify our success and whether we look at the – you know, you're not trying to pat yourself on the back. You're trying to make sure that you're not falling behind. Right. I remember this – Or followers on – you know, I do think the social media platforms have intentionally brought this in. Yes. It's not – like the number of likes can be reinforcing somewhat. Number of followers. But the number of followers, people are monitoring their increases and decreases, and they kind of covet them. Yes. Absolutely.

翻译: 比如说，你的粉丝数量变化速度。有时候媒体会报道某人失去了多少粉丝之类的事情，仿佛这是一件大事。所以我觉得在这方面有某种量化的东西。等你的书出版后，等你首次体验《纽约时报》畅销书榜单，那感觉真是不可思议。你知道Ryan Holiday，对吧？你有没有请他上过你的节目？没有。我没请他上过节目。他真的很棒，我还读过他的一本书。他告诉我，他以为自己终于能感受到完全的活力。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

And the rate of change of your followers, for example. And the media will say, like, so-and-so lost its number of followers or whatever. Like, it's like a thing. So I think there's something there around quantification. Wait till your book comes out. Wait till you experience the New York Times bestseller list for the first time. Oh, it's incredible. It's incredible. You know Ryan Holiday, right? Have you ever had him on your show? Yeah. I have not had him on the show. It's fantastic. No, I'm one of his books. He's great. He's great. And, you know, he – one time he said to me, it's like, I was sure that I was finally going to feel, like, completely alive.

“有一天，”他说，“我会想象自己会有一部作品登上纽约时报畅销书榜的榜首。”他说，“最后这一天终于来了。但仅仅一周后，我就被特朗普的一个儿子挤下了榜单。是巴伦？哦，不，不知道，是他的某个儿子。对对对，我也不太清楚。”他主要想表达的是，这种事情特别荒谬，因为完全是随意的。这个标准是随意的。但你在努力做的，是想量化你的自我价值。我够好吗？我足够优秀吗？我够好吗？

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

And if I – someday, he said, I'm going to visualize that I'm going to have a number one New York Times bestseller. And he said, and finally it happened. And one week later, I got knocked off the list by Trump's kid. Barron? Oh, no. No, I don't know. I mean, one of his sons. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't know. And his whole point is that it's so absurd because it's completely arbitrary. Right. The metric is arbitrary. Right. But what you're trying to do is you're trying to quantify your sense of self. Am I enough yet? Am I good enough yet? Am I enough yet?

所以，一方面你实际上是在谈论成瘾问题。但我反复观察到的一件事是，人们总是在努力证明自己足够优秀，而他们并不觉得自己是这样。他们通过检查“得分板”来赢得这种感觉。很多富人就是这样做的，很多学术界的人也是如此。他们会去看某个人的H指数是多少。比如，H指数有多高？哦，某某人是个大人物，H指数是36？开玩笑吧。其实没多少人明白这什么意思，可能只有1%的人了解其中的含义，但你我都知道对吧？因为这涉及到影响力，对吧？说到底，这就是他们告诉自己要追求的。但是，用一个数值来衡量某件事情——我的意思是，人脑有天生就用于计数的回路。对吧。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

And so, on the one hand, you're actually talking about the addiction. But one of the things that I see again and again and again and again is that people are trying to prove to themselves that they actually are enough. And they don't feel like they are. And the way that they earn it is actually by looking at the scoreboard. This is what a lot of wealthy people do. It's what a lot of academics do. It's like, how many – what's his H index? You know, like, how high is the H index? And, oh, yeah, so-and-so is such a big shot. H index is like 36? Joke. And nobody even knows what that means. Like, 1% of the people watching us, but you and I know what that means. Yeah. Because it's about impact, right? Ultimately, people – or they tell themselves it's that. But putting a numerical score on something – I mean, the brain has circuits that are pretty much hardwired for counting. Yeah.

我的意思是，我的狗没有我助理的狗聪明。他有一只牧羊犬，它们会数数。它们知道有多少人在现场——它们看着你时，就像在说“别评判我”。他的狗能追踪团体中的人数以及缺少多少人。这让它们非常擅长自己的工作，并通过确保所有成员都到齐来获得奖励。而这里面有个有趣的部分，Andrew。这个功能，也就是量化功能和本质化功能的“多少”，正是我们左脑特别擅长的。这就是McGilchrist带回来的大脑半球优势理论。小时候，人们说头脑有分右脑和左脑：右脑的人有艺术天赋，而左脑的人更具分析能力。但那是不准确的。左脑主要负责“怎么做”和“是什么”的功能，需要精确的量化，而这就是左脑的基本作用。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

I mean, my dog isn't as smart as my assistant's dog. He has a herding dog. They can count. They know how many people in there – They look at you like – you look at him like, stop judging me. His dog is tracking how many in the group are here and how many are missing. That's what makes them really good at their job, and that's where they get reward by making sure they're all in the – And here's the interesting part about this, Andrew. That function, that quantification function, that essentializing function of how much, that's what we're really good at using the left hemisphere of our brains. That's that whole theory of hemispheric lateralization that McGilchrist brought back. When I was a kid, there was right brain, left brain people. Right brain people are artsy, and left brain people are analytical. That's not right. But the how-to and what side requires hardcore quantification, and that's fundamentally a left brain function.

右脑，那是个复杂的领域。这些是复杂的问题，如果你有数据，它们是可以解决的，但仍然很复杂。右脑主要处理的是那些没有明确量化答案的复杂问题。这些问题需要的是理解和直觉。右脑关心的是“为什么”，而不是“怎么做”或者“做什么”。那里是意义所在，这也是这个事情的最后一个核心要素。我们的右脑，是关于爱的，是关于意义的，是与神性相关的，是复杂的，是那些对你最重要但你永远无法解决的问题所在。我指的是，我的汽车问题属于左脑处理，而我的婚姻问题属于右脑。我永远不可能完全解决我的婚姻。在我们进来这里之前，我的妻子给我发了短信“加油，我爱你”。她是真的爱我。我打算晚些时候给她打电话。她可能会对我生气。我不知道。我真的不知道。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

The right side, that's complicated. Those are complicated problems. Solvable but complicated problems if you've got the data. The right side of the brain deals fundamentally more with complex questions, which don't have quantifiable answers. All they have is understanding. All they have is intuition. That's the why side of your brain, not the how-to and what side. And that's where meaning resides, which is the last macronutrient of this. The right side of our brain, the love side, the meaning side, the God side, the complex side, all the problems that are most important to you but you'll never solve. I mean, my car is left hemisphere. My marriage is right hemisphere. I will never solve my marriage. Never. I mean, before we stepped in here, my wife texted me, good luck. I love you. She does. I'm going to call her later. She might be pissed off at me. I don't know. I don't know.

我已经结婚35年了，Andrew。我不太清楚。我的意思是，我的妻子是西班牙人，所以事情变得非常复杂。但你明白我的意思，对吧？我明白。但问题就在这里，这是我们面临的问题。你需要一个整合大脑。人有两个大脑半球是有原因的，连接这两个半球的是胼胝体。之所以这样，是因为我们有两个方面：一个是我要去工作，要赚钱，怎么做和为什么做的问题；另一个是因为我爱我的家人，我想创造价值，我想在世界上做一些重要的事情。右脑，左脑，右脑。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

I've been married 35 years, Andrew. I don't know. I mean, she's Spanish, so it's really complex. But you get my point, right? I do. But this is the thing. And this is the problem that we face. You need an integrator brain. You get two hemispheres for a reason and a corpus callosum to connect between the two hemispheres. You get that because you've got the, I'm going to go to work. I'm going to earn money. How to and what? Why? Because I love my family. Because I want to create value. Because I want to do something important in the world. Right hemisphere, left hemisphere, right hemisphere.

当你被困在大脑的左半球时，比如每天查看手机205次，接收那些无穷无尽且无用的信息推送，那么你就会缺乏意义感。因为你只能用复杂的一面去评估它。这是我们面临的最大问题。你想知道我们在幸福方面面临的最大危机是什么吗？就是意义的问题。这就是原因。那么，如何采取措施来丰富生活中意义的数量、类型和范围呢？

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

And when that's cut off and when you're stuck in the left hemisphere, for example, looking at your phone 205 times a day and taking, you know, an endless algorithm of useless information that's fed to you, then meaning will be absent. Because you can only assess it on the complex side. And that's the biggest problem we face. You want to know the biggest crisis we face? In happiness, it's meaning. And that's why. So how can somebody take steps to enrich the amount and the type of, the array of meaning in their life?

你我都在个人和专业领域对成瘾问题进行了大量研究。成瘾问题非常有趣，令人着迷，因为它揭示了人类大脑如何被困扰。其中一个发现是，当人们终于摆脱成瘾的控制时，有三件事情必须发生。第一件事就是他们会感到愤怒。这是所有成瘾者的共同点，他们会感到愤怒并反抗。他们会坚定地说：“不，再也不这样了。” 如果你见过那些参加12步康复计划的人，你会发现他们可能会对自己经历过的荒诞事情发笑，但最终他们会坚定地表示：“不，够了。我不再忍受这一切。” 你必须感到愤怒并进行反抗。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

You and I have done both a lot of work in the world of addiction, personally and professionally. And addiction is unbelievably interesting. It's endlessly fascinating how the human brain is captured. And one of the things that you find is when people finally are not in the grip of addiction, there's three things that have to happen. Number one is they get pissed. That's what all addicts do. They get pissed and they rebel. And they're like, no, no more. You've ever seen, you know, you've seen people in 12-step programs and they're like, they might laugh about the crazy things that happened to them. But they finally, they're just like, no, no more. I'm not going to put up with this anymore. You've got to get pissed and rebel.

他们做的第二件事情是，他们实际上了解戒瘾的机制。不同的瘾有不同的戒除机制，比如赌博成瘾、色情成瘾、酗酒成瘾或吸毒成瘾。戒除这些瘾的机制各不相同。这过程非常复杂，也极具挑战性，需要依靠科学和临床实践等手段。不过，最困难的其实是过一种新的生活方式，学会与自己和谐相处。酒瘾患者常常会选择搬家，他们会想，如果我搬走了，那些让我颓废的人就不会再出现在我身边，我也不会再住在酒类商店楼上了。天啊，搬家会解决问题，我要改变我的生活环境。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

The second thing that they do is that actually they understand something about the mechanism of becoming de-addicted. And that's different in different ways. You're addicted to gambling. You're addicted to pornography. If you're addicted to alcohol, you're addicted to drugs. There's different mechanisms for becoming de-addicted. And of course, that's very complicated and very, very hard. And it requires science and, you know, and clinical practice, et cetera, et cetera. But the last part is actually the most difficult, which is living in a new way, living with you. You know, it's like, it's one of the things that alcoholics always do. They always do this is they move. They always move. And they're like, dude, if I move, it's like all these losers that are around me. And I'm not going to see any of those people. And I'm not going to be living upstairs from a liquor store. And for God's sake, moving is going to do the trick. I'm going to change my circumstances.

当然，这一切都是行不通的。因为从你行李箱里第一个跳出来的就是你自己，带着你那酒精中毒般的大脑。这就是问题所在。因此，真正困难的是你要学会与自己共处。我们严重地、深深地成瘾，不管是对技术的成瘾还是其他。我们都知道这一点，你我都曾无限次地谈论过这一话题。上过你节目的约翰·海特也提到过我们实际上面临的困扰。我们必须面对它。我的工作主要是关于如何对抗这一切，如何激发足够的愤怒。更重要的是，我工作的核心在于如何与自己相处，如何以不同的方式生活。因为当你能够与自己相处时，就进入了大脑的右半球，因此你需要拥有右半球的体验。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

And of course, it never works. Because the first thing that jumps out of your suitcase is you with your alcoholic brain. That's the problem. And so you have to learn to live with you is the hard thing that actually comes from this. We are deeply, deeply, deeply addicted. We're deeply technologically addicted. We're hooked into this thing. We all know this. You've talked about it ad infinitum. So have I. John Height, who's been on your show, has talked about the affliction that we actually have. That's what we have to do. My work is fundamentally about how to rage against the machine to get pissed off enough. And even more than that, it's fundamentally about how to live with you, how to live differently. Because when you live with you, then you're in the right hemisphere of your brain. And you have to have right hemispheric experiences.

顺便说一下，我的曾祖父莱罗伊·布鲁克斯，他整天都在田里劳动。他整天盯着骡子的屁股看，但他从来没有回家跟我的曾祖母说：“亲爱的，我今天在骡子后面感到很恐慌。”他也从来没有说：“你知道吗，我的生活真无聊。”部分原因是因为他的思维方式没有问题，他的大脑正按理应的方式工作。但这在今天却不常见。所以，我们需要做的第一件事就是打破这种循环，然后以一种传统的方式生活。这正是实现人生意义的方法所在。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

Which, by the way, my great-grandfather, Leroy Brooks, he was in the right hemisphere all day long. He spent all day looking at a mule's butt. And he never came home and said to my great-grandmother, Honey, I had a panic attack behind a mule today. No. And he also never said, You know, my life is so boring. And part of the reason was because his brain wasn't broken. His brain was working the way it was actually supposed to. But that's not ordinary today. And so what we need to do, number one, is we need to break the cycle. And then we need to live in an old-fashioned way. That's what it comes down to. That's how we find the meaning in our lives.

打破这个循环，顺便说一下，我的意思是，我们都知道相关的研究。你的节目中也提到过这一点。我从中获取了大量知识。你可以通过在一天的第一个小时、最后一个小时以及用餐时间来简单地打破你的技术成瘾循环。就是这么简单。大量研究表明，在你醒来的第一个小时内所发生的神经认知编程、在一天最后一个小时内的关系编程和睡眠结构，以及在无设备干扰下与他人一起用餐时所激发的神经肽，这些都会改变你与技术的关系。但你必须打破这个循环。而且，有大量的资源可以利用。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

And breaking the cycle, by the way, I mean, we all know the research. You've had it on your show. I've taken huge amounts of knowledge from you on this. You can break the cycle of technological addiction in your life simply by doing first hour of the day, last hour of the day, and mealtimes. Simply doing that. And there's tons of research that shows that the neurocognitive programming that happens in your first hour awake, the relationship programming and the sleep architecture that you're wiring in the last hour of your day, and then the neuropeptides that you'll actually elicit by eating with other people without devices. Your relationship to technology will change. But you've got to break the cycle. And there's tons of resources out there.

你怎样以不同的方式生活呢？那么，人们如何激活他们大脑的右半球呢？他们会问一些无法通过谷歌找到答案的问题，比如：我为什么活着？我愿意为什么而献出生命？这些是深刻的哲学问题。而哲学、灵性和宗教正是为你带来这些基本无法通过谷歌查询的问题的原因之一。正因为如此，关于大脑半球侧化的研究表明，当你处于这些思考的状态时，右脑会被充分点亮。你可以训练一只大猩猩回答各种问题，但它无法提出有趣的基本问题。这就是人类独有的特征，这就是近乎神性的特征，即提问。这是一种让人迷恋的右脑体验，是深奥而神秘的。这也是为什么它如此令人畏惧。我不知道。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

How do you live in a different way? Well, how do people illuminate the right hemisphere of their brains? They ask un-Google-able questions, right? Like, why am I alive? For what would I give my life? You know, the deep philosophical questions. And that's what philosophy and spirituality and religion bring to you, is the deep questions that are fundamentally un-Google-able. And that's one of the reasons that the hemispheric lateralization literature shows that when you're in these spaces, that your right hemisphere is fundamentally illuminated. You can train a gorilla to answer all kinds of questions, but not ask interesting fundamental questions. That's humanity. That's God-like, is to ask questions. It's to fall in love as a right hemispheric experience. It's deep, deep mystery. It's like, that's the reason it's so scary. I don't know.

我无法解决这个问题。谁能帮我回答一下吗？不，朋友，你需要亲身去体验它，体验到生命的尽头。这就是为什么找到你的使命如此重要，为什么你和我对我们的工作有这么多意义，因为我们在实践我们的使命。这是我们注定要做的事情，所以使命就是你注定要做的事情，它里面包含着“意义”这个词。这也是为什么敬拜上帝、活在神圣光辉中如此重要，这也是为什么试图成为印度人所谓的“隐士”如此重要。这也是为什么美，包括道德之美、艺术之美和自然之美，是右脑半球的体验。这也是为什么痛苦如此重要，因为痛苦帮助你理解你生命的意义。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

I can't solve this problem. Somebody answer this question for me. No, man, you've got to live it. You've got to live it for the end of your days. That's why finding your calling, why you and I, we have so much meaning for our work, because we're living our calling. This is what we're meant to do. That's why a calling is what you're meant to do. It has the word meaning in it. That's why worshiping God, living in the luminescent divine, that's why trying to become a sannyasi, as the Indians would say, is so critically important. That's why beauty, moral beauty, artistic beauty, natural beauty, these are right hemispheric experiences. And that's why suffering is so important. Because suffering helps you understand the meaning of your life, per se.

痛苦是每个人都会经历的，在那些时刻，人们总是会问："你是在什么时候真正认识到自己的？你是如何知道自己是由什么构成的呢？" 他们会告诉你一些不好的经验，比如：“哦，那次在伊比萨海滩的一周。”不。是当我妈妈去世时，我多么爱她；是当有人抛弃我在婚礼上；是当我被解雇；是当我失去生意；愿上帝保佑，是当我失去孩子的时候。人们回顾这些经历，他们说，那就是那个时刻，那是我真正认识到自己的时候。为什么？因为那是我们真正融入自我的时刻，那是我们成为完整人类的时刻。那就是充分活着的意义，就是找到生命的意义。最终，这是通往幸福的道路。让人们慢慢体会，这才是真正的智慧。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

Suffering is where everybody's like, when did you know who you really, really were? How did you know what you were made of? They'll tell you something bad. Oh, that week at the beach in Ibiza. No. When my mom died, I loved her. When somebody left me at the altar. When I got fired. When I lost my business. God forbid, when I lost a child. People look back and they're saying, that was the moment. That was when I knew. Why? Because that's when we were truly integrated. That's when we became integrated human beings. That's what it means to be fully alive. To find meaning. And ultimately, that is the path to happiness. And let that sink in for people. That's the real wisdom.

我打断一下，因为我知道你非常谦虚，总是把功劳推给别人或其他事物。但你真的很有天赋，这一点显而易见。谢谢，收到你的这种称赞对我意义重大。是的，你真的很有才华，因为人们有很多种方式来传达重要的信息，但有时候话语需要停留一下，被好好思考。我在你的书中被激发出了一些问题，但我想确保我们能够回到关于信念的这个话题。我们在这个播客里不常谈论这个话题，不过我曾在其他播客中以嘉宾身份讨论过这个话题。而且你我之前也有过关于这个的对话。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

And I'm going to stop you, because I know you're super humble, and you're going to pass it off onto someone else or something else. But you really have a gift. And it comes through. Thank you, I hear that means a lot coming from you. Yeah, you really do. Because a lot of different ways people can say important things. But sometimes things just land, and they just need to sit for a sec. So I have some questions that were prompted in your book. But I want to make sure that we return to this notion of faith. It's not something we talk a lot about on this podcast. I've talked about it as a guest on other podcasts. But you and I had a conversation about that.

我认为大概等这个节目播出的时候，斯坦福的那次对话也会公开。是的，我建议大家去看，因为和你进行那次对话对我来说很感动。没错，和你谈论你的旅程。你知道的，投入到生活的身体健康很容易，但生活的心灵健康却是不同的体验。对我来说，第一个让我大开眼界的是，追求所谓的“完美”可能是目标，但没有人真正达到那个境界。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

And I think probably by the time that this episode airs, that conversation at Stanford will also be public. Yes. And I recommend people watch it, because that was really moving for me, to have that conversation with you. Yeah, same. To talk about your journey. And, you know, the, I mean, it's really easy to get into the physical fitness of life. But the metaphysical fitness of life is a different experience. The real eye-opener, the first one for me was, oh, like, striving for perfection, it might be, perfection in quotes, might be the goal, but like no one attains that.

没有人能够达到那种境界。所以，要小心不要向人类询问那些不可能从人类那里得到的答案。这是我逐渐转向真正的信仰、对上帝的信念以及一种祷告实践的原因。对于我来说，这至少是过去近三年中我生命中最稳定的部分。处于这样一种关系中是很有趣的：我们一起去教堂，一起祈祷，或者仅仅和某人一起祷告。当我们在斯坦福参加完《真理》会议后分手时，那一刻非常有趣，因为我们互道再见。我们像往常一样拥抱，说：「很快再见，兄弟，记得联系我。」

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

No human attains that. So be careful to not ask humans for answers that are not possible to come from human beings. And that's where that eventually moved to a real faith, a belief in God, a prayer practice that is, at least for me, it's the most consistent feature of my life for the last, now, almost three years. And it's been interesting to be in a relationship where we like on to church together and to pray together or to just pray with somebody, right? And when we parted ways at Stanford after the Veritas meeting, it was so interesting because we said goodbye. We did the usual like hug, like see you soon, brother, look me up.

你说过，会为我祈祷。你还说，如果可以，也请为我祈祷。我一直在这样做。有些人可能会听到这些然后觉得，哎哟，这下好了，又是几个科学家在说这事。但是如果有人愿意承认人类可能并不知道所有的答案，那就像是一个让人怀疑的美好远景。这就是我几年前的感受。然后，随着时间的推移，我渐渐向前迈出了非常大的步伐。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

And you said, I'll pray for you. And you said, and if you don't mind, pray for me too. And I've been doing that. And it's, now some people might hear this and be like, oh boy, here we go. A couple of scientists talking about, but if one just like entertains the possibility that maybe humans don't have all the answers, that's like a great vista to like skeptically look out. That's kind of how I think they felt like a couple of years ago. It's kind of like, and then, you know, over time I've migrated very far forward.

但我认为信仰这种东西并不是每个人都一定要有的，尤其像我这样，如果你在家庭中并没有很多信仰的氛围，你不会一下子就完全融入其中，就像交了个新朋友那样。我知道，信仰的建立需要一些时间，也不一定非要以某种方式发生。我觉得人们常常会看到洗礼，然后认为你一下水就能立刻接受，就这样重生了，对吧？重生，对吧？这就像是一条清晰的界限，只需跨过去就行了。但事实并非如此。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

But I think that the whole thing of being like faith, I realize isn't this thing that one necessarily, especially like me, if you didn't grow up with a lot of it in your family, you know, just like run and fall, like new best friend. I know. It takes some, it doesn't have to happen that way. But I think people see- And if it does, it can be very brittle by the way. And people see baptisms and they assume, okay, like into the water and you just like embrace, right? Born again. Right. Born again. Right. It's this like thick black line that you step over type thing.

好的。我从观察你和与你的对话中学到的一件事是，事情可以是渐进的。可以持怀疑态度，可以前进，可以后退，可以探索，可以思考——因为这都是人类大脑的特质。上帝可能也希望我们这样做。所以，你在Veritas上的讲解让我非常感动，因为对于那些还没有看到或不在现场的人来说，就像有一位经验丰富的专家在那里一样。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

Yeah. And one thing that I've learned from observing you and from conversations with you is that like it's allowed to be gradual. Yeah. It's okay to be skeptical, to move forward, to move back, to explore, to wonder, like because that's all the stuff of having a human brain. Yeah. And God probably wants that for us. Yeah. And so I've been very, very moved by your teachings on Veritas that day because for those that haven't seen it yet and weren't there, it was very clear that there was like a seasoned pro in there.

Arthur 从小在家里受到很多有关宗教和祷告的教导，而我没有，所以我是比较晚才接触这些。我就像个新手，对于这种场合感到非常兴奋和解放。想象一下，站在一个房间里，周围全是人，而我确信自己在这个话题上的知识水平处于最低的1%。但正因为如此，我可以自由地谈论关于不懂的事。这种坦诚地承认自己不知道，并努力去尝试的谦逊精神真的很美好。就像在说：“我不知道啊，我也是在这里摸索，我在尽力而为。”

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

Arthur grew up with a lot of structured religion and prayer practice in his home and I did not and coming to this rather late. So I was like the newbie and it was so much, it was so liberating for me to be on a stage where in a room full of people where I was certain I was in the bottom 1% of knowledgeable about the topic and that was what I could talk about and not knowing, right? It was so beautiful the humility that you actually brought to that to say, I don't know. I don't know, man. I'm just fumbling around here. I'm just doing my best.

我心中铭刻的是，这里有某种东西，我渴望更多。这是某个人的感受。就是这样。顺便说一下，根据伟大的贤者的说法，这并不是对上帝存在的证明，但却是某种存在的证据。口渴是水存在的证据，性欲是性存在的证据。我们渴望的东西。而且从人类学来看，没有任何证据显示存在彻底世俗化的社会。相反，我们所了解的人类社会都有一种对神圣事物的感知，有对我们实际上看不见的事物的感觉，并对此有一种与生俱来的渴望。并非每一个观看我们的人都是这样，也并不是每个人的表现方式都相同。这是人类特有的特点。否则，这样的特点就会从我们身上完全进化消失了。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

What I have written on my heart is that there is something here and I want more. And this is somebody who's. That's it. By the way, this is, according to the great sages, this is not proof of God but it's evidence of something. Evidence of the existence of water is thirst. Evidence of the existence of sex is sexual desire. We want. And there are no anthropologically any evidence of societies that are systematically secular. On the contrary, all human societies that we've been able to ascertain have a sense of the divine, have a sense of the things that we actually cannot see and we have an innate desire for it. Not every single person watching us and not everybody in the exact same way. This is something that's characteristic of humanity. Otherwise, it would be absolutely evolved out of us.

顺便说一下，我们渴望神圣存在的这一点，本身就是神圣存在的证据。这就像口渴一样，是对某种欲望的表现。欲望的存在可以被视为其对象存在的证据。这是一个经典的哲学论点。不过，这并不是说这能证明上帝的存在，因为你无法证明它。信仰是一种基于无可测验假设的信念，而这种信念对我们来说是非常困难的，因为我们擅长的是可测试的假设，正是通过测试这些假设，我们才得以在这些顶尖大学任职。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

And by the way, that's evidence that the divine exists is that we want the divine. It's our desire. It's like the thirst. It's evidence of. An appetite is evidence of the existence of its object. That's a classic philosophical argument. And again, that's not evidence that God exists. That's not proof that God exists because you can't prove it. Faith is belief in something that is fundamentally based on a non-testable hypothesis, which is super hard for you and me because testable hypotheses, that's where the action is. That's how we got hired at these fancy universities is testing testable hypotheses.

作为一名科学家，生活在冒险的边缘，其实质在于探索那些你心中深知存在的、但无法测试的假设。这是一种极端的追求，也是我所渴望的生活体验。我想要的就是这样的生活挑战。不过，按照我之前用厌食症做的比喻（我无意冒犯任何人），我也想说，也有很多我非常尊敬的人会说，他们没有这种渴望，他们不想要这种冒险，他们没有这种追寻的渴求。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

And yet the essence of living on the edge of the adventure of life as a scientist is to be in the realm of non-testable hypotheses of things that you deeply know in your heart exist. That's hardcore. That's what I want. That's the bite out of life that I want to take. But in keeping with this analogy earlier about anorexia, and I'm not trying to insult anyone here, I'm also speaking about many, many people who I deeply respect who will say, I don't have that craving. They don't have that wish. They don't have that thirst.

我可以想象对此可能有两种反应。第一种是，有些东西巧妙地被放在他们面前，让他们产生一种错觉，以为自己得到了他们想要的东西，但实际上并不是他们想要的。就是他们让生活中的其他方面填补了那种渴望和饥渴，我不想说把这些当作他们的“神”，但这多少满足了他们的某种需求。面对死亡的恐惧，像是欧内斯特·贝克谈论的那些问题。另一种极端情况可能是某种精神上的厌食症。或许他们的大脑回路已经发生变化，以至于他们的满足感来自于不再想要满足这种渴望。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

And I can imagine there are probably two responses to that. One is that something has been deftly slid in front of them to give them the illusion that they're getting that thing, but it's not that thing, right? That they've made other aspects of life their, I don't want to say their God, but it's sort of filled in that hunger of thirst. The terror of death, all that Ernest Becker stuff. Yeah. Yeah. Or at the other extreme, it could be a sort of spiritual anorexia, right? Like the circuits have, like let's give them some credit. Maybe the circuits have actually modified to the point where the reward is in not wanting to satisfy the craving.

因为大脑也会这样做。这就是为什么对这些强化机制感到困惑的原因。我更喜欢用“强化”这个词而不是“奖励”，因为它更准确，它涉及到通过欲望和行为来完成一个循环：重置、欲望、行为。对，这就是“想要—学习—喜欢”循环。它是基于强化的。没错。所以，强化，比如多巴胺和强化总是有效的。多巴胺和奖励就比较复杂了。我明白了，比如，多巴胺可以通过痛苦来刺激，其中一部分是因为痛苦的结束也能带来奖励感。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

Because the brain will do this too. This is what's so weird about these reinforce, I prefer the word reinforcement to reward because it involves, it's more accurate because it's about closing a loop with desire and behavior, reset, desire, behavior. Yeah. That's the wanting, learning, liking cycle. It's based on reinforcement. Right. So the reinforcement, like dopamine and reinforcement always works. Dopamine and reward, it's complicated. I got it. Like you can stimulate dopamine through pain and part of it is the offset of pain. It's rewarding.

这是为什么海洛因成瘾者喜欢针刺入静脉的感觉之一，对吗？这种疼痛实际上就是奖励的一部分，因为它会加强这种行为模式。正如你说的那样。如果存在一种类似精神上的轻度厌食症，人们从不对这些事情感兴趣中感到快乐，他们觉得自己已经足够了，对不知道的事感到良好。确实是这样。你可能会听说过这样的事情。当然，我也想公平地承认，确实有这样的人存在。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

This is one of the reasons that heroin addicts like the feel of the pinch of the needle going into the vein, right? That part, the pain is part of the reward per se because it's actually reinforcing the behavioral pattern. Exactly your point. If there was such a thing as a mild spiritual anorexia where people are actually getting pleasure from the fact that they are not interested in any of that and they got enough and they feel good not knowing. Right. You hear this. Sure. And I want to give, in fairness, I want to acknowledge those people exist.

好的。他们对于自己没有信仰神和没有信仰关系的事实感到满意。他们没有信仰，也似乎并不渴望信仰。而且在某些情况下，这种缺乏信仰对他们来说似乎反而是一种满足。他们为自己是“无信仰者”感到自豪，这不是“修女”的意思，而是指“无宗教信仰者”。这是一种身份认同，实际上也是他们自我认同的一部分。他们觉得自己并不需要这个。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

Right. And they're like good with the fact that they don't have a relationship, like a higher power relationship of belief in God. They don't have faith. They don't seem to have this thirst and the lack of it almost sounds in some cases like it's rewarding to them. There's a pride that actually comes from being none, not an N-U-N-N-O-N-E. It's a designation. It's an identity. Actually, it's who I am as a person. I don't actually need that.

顺便说一下，有很多很有说服力的解释不符合或不一定符合全知全爱的上帝这个概念。剑桥大学的斯蒂芬·凯夫写了一本非常精彩的书，叫《永生》。你看过这本书吗？你读过吗？他是一位哲学家，他谈到，人类大脑能够理解死亡这一概念。你知道自己会死，并且完全能够坦然接受这一事实。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

And by the way, there are all very compelling explanations that are not consistent or necessarily consistent with the idea that there's an all-knowing, all-loving God. I mean, Stephen Cave at Cambridge has a really beautiful book called Immortality. Have you actually seen it? Have you read it? And he's a philosopher. And he talks about the fact that the human brain is able to capture the concept of physical death. You know you're going to die. And you're completely comfortable in that knowledge.

你可能不喜欢这个结论，也可能不想现在面对它。但你知道，你终究会死去。然而，我们的大脑无法真正理解“无”的状态。所以，尽管你知道死亡不可避免，但无法理解它，因为这超出了我们认知的能力。因此，你需要找到一种方式来面对这个问题。一个方法就是干脆不去处理它，永远不去想它。可能你选择让自己一直沉醉于酒精或麻醉中，或者让自己保持忙碌，成为一个彻底的工作狂。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

You might not like it. You might not want it now. But you know you're going to die. But your brain is incapable of understanding non-existence. So you know you're going to die, but you can't understand non-existence because that goes beyond our cognitive capacities. And so you've got to resolve it. One way to deal with it is to not deal with it, to never think about it. Stay drunk and high or stay busy and be a complete workaholic. Stay busy.

另一种处理这种情况的方法是制定一个决心，即“我会死去，但我会继续存在”。这样我就能理解这一点。这可以作为宗教概念的一种社会解释。你知道，早在上世纪90年代和2000年代初，一些神经生物学家曾研究大脑中的“上帝模块”。他们使用磁性头盔进行实验，刺激与患有癫痫大发作患者大脑相同的部分。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

Another way to deal with it is to create a resolution that says, I'm going to die, but I'm going to continue to exist. And so I can understand that. And that would be a social explanation for the concept of religion. Some neurobiologists, you know, back in the day in the 1990s and early 2000s were doing work on the God module in the brain. And they were using these magnetic helmets that they were doing on this thing. And what they would do is they would just stimulate the same part of the brain that's touched with people who have, you know, grand mal seizures.

很多患有癫痫发作的人可能会经历一种神秘体验。比如说，如果你是一个天主教修女，突然看到圣母玛利亚显现，主教的规程是首先检查你是否患有癫痫。因为这有可能是你未被诊断的癫痫引发的发作，导致你产生了神秘体验。我明白了，这样说的意思是，安德鲁和亚瑟在这个问题上有点偏离正轨，他们并没有严谨地遵循科学的方法。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

And so a lot of people who have epileptic seizures, events, that they'll have a mystical experience. And, you know, if you're, for example, a Catholic nun and you have an apparition of the Blessed Virgin Mary, the protocol from the bishop is to check you for epilepsy first. Because it might just be that you had undiagnosed epilepsy and you had a seizure and it made you have a mystical experience, right? Okay, I get it. You know, and these are ways to actually say that, you know, Andrew and Arthur are going off the reservation here. They're not being good scientists.

对于神的体验，有很多很好的哲学和神经科学解释。对我来说，这些解释并没有什么吸引力。部分原因在于，我已经在这个世界上行走了62年，这个问题一直萦绕在我心头。我并不担心不存在的问题，并不是说这个问题已经解决了，而是这不是我所关注的。而且说实话，有很多很多时候，我感受不到一丝一毫的情感上的信仰。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

There are plenty good philosophical and neuroscientific explanations for the experience of God per se. For me, that is uncompelling. And part of the reason that that's uncompelling for me is that I've been walking through across the earth for the last 62 years and I can't get it out of my mind. I'm not worried about the problem of non-existence. It's not that it's been resolved, but this is not a preoccupation of mine. And quite frankly, there are lots and lots and lots of times that I don't feel a single, you know, a single molecule of emotional faith.

但我对造物主的存在有很强烈的感觉，对神圣的存在有很强烈的感知。我理解他吗？不了解。我的理解是非常不完整的。我要坦诚地说，我是一个天主教徒，每天都去参加弥撒。为什么要这样做呢？并不是因为我有强烈的感受，甚至不是因为我坚定地相信，而是因为我通过实践来服务这种直觉。顺便说一句，对于正在观看的大家来说，可能觉得：“我不知道，我也许没有这种感觉。”那么又如何呢？

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

But I have a strong sense of the existence of the creator, strong sense of the divine. Do I understand him? No. I have a very imperfect physics. Full disclosure, I'm a Catholic and I go to mass every day. Why do I do that? I do that not because I feel it, not even because I believe, but because I'm serving this intuition through practice. And by the way, for everybody who's watching us, it's like, I don't know, maybe, but I don't feel it. So what? So what?

你知道，任何已婚的人都明白，如果你完全依靠自己的感觉来维持婚姻，那么一个月都坚持不下来。绝对不会成功。你甚至不能只是靠对婚姻制度的信仰来坚持。你之所以能维持婚姻，是因为你在不断地“实践”婚姻。同样的道理也适用于你与任何人的关系，包括与上帝的关系。先从实践开始。偶尔你会真的相信，很偶尔你会有所感受。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

You know, if anybody who's married, they know that if you went according to your feelings, you will not stay married a month. You absolutely won't. You don't even go according to your belief in the institution of marriage. You go, you stay married because you practice marriage. And the same thing is true with your relationship with anybody, including with God. Start with practice. Occasionally, you'll believe and very occasionally you'll feel it.

这就是整个关系的实际运作方式。安德鲁，这就是流程。我很高兴听到主教有相关的流程。他们确实有。但是，个人信仰的流程不是感觉、信念、实践，而是实践、信念、感觉。并没有试图减弱你刚刚描述的深度和影响。我就坐在这张桌子的对面，与世界上最受尊敬的力量训练专家之一帕维尔·萨苏林会面。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

That's the way the whole relationship actually works. Andrew, that's the protocol. I was happy to hear that the bishop has protocols. They do. But the protocol for individual faith is not feeling, belief, practice. It's practice, belief, feeling. Without any attempt to take away from the depth and impact of what you just described, I sat across at this very table from Pavel Satsulin, who's one of the most revered strength trainers in the world.

他时不时会提到我的名字，有时也会直接叫我的名字：“安德鲁”，然后告诉我一些事情。他说：“你不是在举重，也不是在健身。你是在练习力量训练。” 我当时有点不明白，但觉得可以，叫这个或那个都行。他接着说：“不不，每次你做这些训练时，其实都是在练习，以便变得更好。” 他其实是在说，这完全改变了你的动力结构。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

And he said, as you, occasionally he'd say my name, Andrew, and then he'd tell me something. And he said, you don't weight lift, you don't work out. He's like, you practice strength training. And I was like, I don't know, I sort of get it. Okay, yeah, we can call it one thing or another. He's like, no, no, every time you do it, you're practicing to get better at it. And that changes the whole motivational structure is what he essentially was saying.

这会改变你对结果的期望。是的，你期望自己的力量增强，但你也始终是自己和这个过程的学生。你从未真的期望完全征服它，因为总有更多重量可以增加。这是一个非常机械、物理的比喻来形容你所描述的东西。但我认为，他和你所说的话中都有一种重要的优雅之处。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

And that changes your expectation of what you're going to get out of it. It's, yes, you expect to get stronger, but it's this notion that you're always the student of yourself. You're always the student of this process. And you never really expect to like conquer it because there's always more weight you could add. Now, this is a very mechanical, physical analogy to what you're describing. But there's an important, I think, elegance in what he said and what you said.

我认为这里的相似之处在于“协同效应”。当我们把某件事情视为一种练习时，我们更加关注过程，而不是结果。这一点相对简单。但更深层次的是，这种过程可以几乎确定性地预示你会坚持下去。相反，如果你的目标只是追求结果，比如拿到奖品、奖章或提高成绩等，这种动机是有限的。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

And the similarity there, I think, is synergistic, which is when something is a practice, we are not focused on the outcome as much as we are the process. That's, you know, fairly straightforward. But then there's this almost like higher order thing that comes from that because it predicts with mere certainty that you'll continue doing it. Whereas if you're trying to obtain the, like grab the ring, get the prize, get the ribbon, lift the weight, that has a ceiling to it.

你真正讨论的是“提升”的概念。通过实践，就像是一种提升。否则，就好像只有一个最高领奖台。在科学领域，有诺贝尔奖之类的奖励。这些都是人为设定的等级，但物理定律是有上限的。而你说的这种提升是没有上限的。没错，我们不能说某个人比其他人更能接近神的体验。这才是目标。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

And so what you're really talking about in the real form of the word is ascension. Like through practice, there's like ascension. Like otherwise, like there's only, there's the top podium. There's in science, there's a Nobel prize. You know, like there are these awards. It's like, you know, but like those are things, again, that are human. Like we set those levels, but the laws of physics have an upper limit. Right. But what you're talking about doesn't have an upper limit. That's right. Like we can't say this person experienced God more than anybody else. Right. And that's the goal.

是的。就像这段关系没有上限一样。在吠陀智慧中，他们有一种非常优雅的方式来理解这种情况。而且，顺便说一下，"练习"这个概念绝不是开玩笑。你练习你的婚姻，你在工作中练习，你练习友情，你练习你的宗教信仰，原因与练习举重而不仅仅是去举重是一样的。你进行练习，因为通过练习，你会变得更好。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

Yeah. Like there's, there's no ceiling to this relationship. The way that the, that the in Vedic wisdom, the way that this is understood, they have a very, very elegant way of understanding this. And by the way, the idea of practice, no joke. You, you practice your marriage. You practice in, in your job, you practice friendship and you practice your religion for precisely the same reason that you practice lifting weights as opposed to just lifting weights. You practice it because practice, you get better.

你是进步的原则。我们已经讨论过这个。但印度人对生命过程中的这种看法是这样的，并且这是基于一种经验上的规律。这是一件奇怪的事。人们往往会在年纪增大时变得更宗教化。你知道，社会学家詹姆斯·福勒曾写过这方面的内容。他说，人们在二十多岁时容易偏离宗教信仰。他们可能会质疑全知全爱的神，想知道为什么孩子会生病或去世。所以他们会质疑痛苦的存在，对吧？解释痛苦。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

You're the progress principle. We've already talked about that. But the way the Indians talk about that over the course of a life is this, and it's based on this empirical regularity. This is a weird thing. People tend to get more religious. They get older. And, you know, James Fowler, the sociologist, wrote about this. He says, people, you know, they wander away and they're in their 20s. And I'm like, yeah, come on, man. I mean, an all-knowing, all-loving God. Well, explain kids getting sick and dying. And so they're like, no, explain suffering, right? Explain suffering.

你我之前讨论过这个问题。你知道，我们在斯坦福的时候谈到过关于痛苦和磨难的问题。但是根据福勒的观察，人们在四十多岁时会变得更加宗教化，原因如下：当你四十多岁时，你可能会觉得，是的，确实如此，一切都没有意义。你已经经历了足够多的事情，可以这么说。是的，你会意识到自己不能解决所有问题。在二三十岁时，你可能会希望对生活有个明确的答案。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

And you and I have talked about this before. You know, we were at Stanford. We talked about the problem with pain and the problem of suffering. But when they're in their 40s, what Fowler notices is people get more religious for the following reason. When you're in the 40s, that's when you're like, yeah, you know what? Nothing makes sense. Actually, nothing makes sense. You've done enough that you can say that. Yeah, you can actually, I'm not going to resolve everything. You want a closed form solution to life all the way through your 20s and 30s.

你认为这其中有某种计算方法。你意识到，对你正在做的一切来说，这都是计算方法，这意味着没有封闭形式的解决方案。你得开始进行模拟。我是一位老运筹学分析师。所以，是的，对于那些你真正关心的问题，没有封闭形式的解决方案，其结果就是一切都很混乱。你对痛苦问题中的认知失调更加适应。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

You think that there's a kind of a calculus to it. And you realize that these are computational methods to everything that you're doing, which means you, no, there's no closed form solution. You've got to get a simulation going here. I'm an old operations research analyst. So yeah, there's no closed form solution to anything you really care about, which is, you know, the result of it is everything's messy. And you're much more comfortable with the cognitive dissonance of the problem of pain.

结果就是，你会寻找那些具有超越性特质的事物，尽管你在周围看到的事物存在矛盾。印度人用以下方式描述这种兴趣：人生可以分为四个阶段。这被称为“人生四阶”（ashramas），这是一个梵语词，意思是人生的四个阶段。理想的人生长度是100年，每个阶段25年，但实际上每个人的情况可能不同。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

And the result of it is that you actually look for something that has these transcendent properties, notwithstanding the contradictions that you actually see around you. The way that the Indians talk about that interest is as follows. Life is in four quarters. This is called the theory of the ashramas, which is a Sanskrit word, you know, for quarters of life. And the ideal life is 100 years long and each one of these is 25 years, but your results may vary, right?

第一个阶段是梵文中的“婆罗门学生期”，意为学生时期。这个阶段的重点是不断学习。第二阶段是“家主期”，意味着成家立业，这个阶段侧重于挣钱和建立家庭与事业。这两个阶段大致持续到50岁。到了50岁以后，你会经历第二次青年期，进入“林中隐居期”，这在梵文中是“瓦那和普拉斯塔”两个词的结合，意思是隐退到森林中。也就是隐居和隐退的意思。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

The first quarter is brahmacharya, which means the student phase. Learn, learn, learn, learn. The second is grihastha, which is the householder phase. Earn, build, earn, build. Family, business. That's up to 50. That's up to 50. Okay. But at 50, you have a second adolescence that leads you into vana prastha, which is a word in Sanskrit that means, it's from two words, vana and prastha, meaning retiring into the forest. Retirement and forest.

这是一个隐喻。你再次进入森林，对吧？你实际上是在逐渐远离，不是远离你的工作，也不是远离你的人际关系，而是远离世俗的成绩单和荣誉。那么你在做什么呢？你正在进入一个精英训练的最后阶段，这个阶段在印度教中被称为“遁世”，其核心思想是坐在神圣、梵天光辉的照耀中。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

And it's a metaphor. You're back into the forest, right? And what you're doing is you're actually gradually moving away from, not from doing your job, you know, not from your relationships, but from the scoreboard, from the honors of the world. And what are you doing? You're getting into an elite training for the last quarter, which is sannyasa, which that is the, to sit in the luminescence of the divine, of the godhead, of Brahman, in Hinduism, is the whole idea.

但那需要超级精英的训练。你不会到了75岁才去体会时间，因为对于非常虔诚或非常有精神追求的人来说，时间和成功狂热者是完全不同的。对于后者来说，总觉得时间不够用，要做更多、更多、更多。这就像享乐主义的无尽循环。对于那些非常有精神追求的人来说，时间不像是线性向前，而更像是一种横向的存在。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

But that requires super elite training. You're not going to get to 75 and experience time, because time, for people who are very religious or very spiritual, time is completely different than the success addict. It's like, time's running out. Got to do more, more, more, more. Like hedonic treadmill. For people who are very, very spiritual, time becomes less forward moving and more sort of lateral.

它有点像河流的三角洲，缓缓展开，水流放慢，你无法分辨海洋从哪里开始，河流在哪里结束。那就是你的人生。这就是坐在上帝的光辉中意味着什么。当死亡降临，它只是一种过程。这是一个渐进的过程，根本不是非此即彼的，尽管我们可以确切地说出大脑的电活动何时停止。这是一个非常非常深刻的心灵体验，让人感到安适。但这需要经过精英的"森林隐居训练"。并非一定要在50岁之后，因为大多数听我们说话的人，如果他们开悟了，可能是在29岁或36岁的时候。但这个精英训练实际上不是背诵整本《圣经》，而是提出深邃的问题。我是谁？上帝是谁？是谁创造了这一切？什么是爱？我被爱吗？我能去爱吗？这些是深刻的形而上学问题，它们引领我们走向爱的终极源头，以及结构并不完美的宗教。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

It kind of spreads out like the delta of a river, where it slows down and you can't tell where the ocean begins and the river finishes. That's your life. That's what it means to sit in the luminescence of God. And when death comes, it's simply, it's a process. It's gradual. It's not binary at all, notwithstanding the fact that we can actually say where the electricity of the brain stops. It is a deeply, deeply spiritual and comfortable thing. But that requires the elite training of vanaprastha. Not after 50 necessarily, because most people listening to us, if they're enlightened, it might be they're 29 or they're 36. But the elite training of, and the elite training is actually not, you know, memorizing the whole Bible. It's asking the deep questions. Who am I? Who is God? Who created this? What is love? Am I loved? Can I love? These are the deep metaphysical questions that actually lead us to the ultimate source of that love and the imperfect physics that is organized religion.

作为一个62岁的人，你是如何探索人生的第三阶段的呢？你提到你每天都去做弥撒。是的。这是有时候在线参加，还是总是亲自去？总是亲自去。而且最棒的是，天主教堂就像星巴克一样，到处都很一致，并且品质很高。每当我在家的时候，我都会在早上6:30和我妻子一起去。我每年有48周在路上，但通常每周有四天在家。有时每周会有三到四天出差。我有一个应用，点击一下就能找到下一个弥撒。真的很棒，因为无论在世界上的哪个地方，每天都有大约450,000次弥撒，基本都是一样的。我在这方面很幸运，就像找到一个健身房一样容易。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

How are you, as a 62-year-old, exploring this third phase? You described your, you go to mass every day. Yeah. Is that sometimes online or always in person? Always in person. So, and the great thing is, you know, the Catholic Church is like Starbucks. It's like, it's a very uniform, available product with high quality. And so, you know, I go with my wife at 6.30 in the morning when I'm home and I'm home usually four days a week. I'm on the road 48 weeks a year, but usually about three days a week that I'm out, sometimes four days a week. And, you know, I've got an app, click, next mass. It's great because it's literally the same product every place in the world 450,000 times a day. I'm very lucky in this way. It's like finding a gym.

所以，你每天早上4点半起床，然后去健身房锻炼一个小时。一周六七天？七天。七天。七天。但这是一个四天一个循环的计划。我显然不会每天做同样的事情，否则我会有严重的运动损伤。训练计划是推、拉、腿部训练和瑜伽。推、拉、腿部锻炼，二氧化锆有氧运动区和瑜伽。非常令人印象深刻的毅力。接着你参加弥撒，然后开始一天的生活。对。你在一天结束时有祈祷的习惯吗？有的。我会在一天中念诵玫瑰经。通常，我会和妻子一起祈祷时辰经，这是一个自六世纪本笃圣人以来僧侣们一直在念的古老修道院祷告。它贯穿了一天的时间。不论我身在何地，在一天结束前，我和妻子都会通过FaceTime或者电话一起祈祷，几乎是在世界上的任何地方。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

So, you're up at 4.30 in the morning and you're in the gym working out for an hour. Six, seven days a week? Seven days a week. Seven days a week. Seven days a week. But it's a four-day cycle. I'm obviously not doing the same thing or I have unbelievable stress injuries. Push-pull legs, yoga. Push-pull legs, zone two, and yoga. Super impressive diligence. And then you're in mass and then you move about your day. Yeah. Do you have a prayer practice at the end of your day? I do. I pray the rosary over the course of the day. Generally speaking, I pray the divine office with my wife, which is an ancient monastic set of prayers that monks have been saying since St. Benedict in the 6th century. And that punctuates the day. My wife and I, we do it on FaceTime or on the phone, no matter where I am, almost any place in the world, as a matter of fact, before the end of the day.

有时候，如果我在印度，那是我每年都努力去的地方，当我要入睡时，她在午餐时间做晚祷。但我们一起这样做，因为这是一种深深的右脑融合。婚姻中的“合二为一”应该是右脑的结合，你们对生活本身有一种深刻的、直观的理解，虽然难以用语言解释，但双方都能明白。这就是婚姻的满足感。这个右脑的联系，你知道的，阿伦·肖尔博士，对吧？他曾是我们这个播客的嘉宾，我很喜欢他的书。他确实强调了这种右脑连接的重要性，尤其是母子之间，但也包括父子、夫妻和亲密朋友之间的联系。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

Sometimes if I'm in India, which I try to go every year, while I'm going to sleep, she's saying the divine office for nighttime prayers at lunchtime. But we do that and we do that together because that's a deep, deep right brain melding. One flesh for a married couple should be the union of the right hemispheres where you have a deep, intuitive understanding of life itself that you can't quite explain, but you both understand. That's the satisfaction of a marriage. So this right brain connection, you know, Dr. Alan Shore, right? Yeah. He's been a guest on this podcast and I loved his book. And I mean, he really emphasized the importance of this right brain connection between especially mother and child, but also father and child. Right. Husband and wife, close friends.

好的，你知道，那种同步上升的欣喜，以及随后低谷的起伏，然后是平静无须激动的状态，这真的是核心。他大多在谈论真实连接的心理学和神经生物学。这在浪漫关系的背景下谈论，真是太美好了。当然，我们会谈到信念、家庭、朋友和工作，比如说，家庭和友情的顶点就是配偶关系。那是因为那个人是你选择成为你亲人的人。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

Yeah, that, you know, that the joining, you know, synchronizing the rise in like elation and then, and also the troughs, right? And then the calm piece of no need for excitement. Like that as really the core, he was mostly talking about the psychology and neurobiology of what real connection is about. And so beautiful to hear you talk about that in the context of a romantic relationship. For sure. And that's, you know, the nice thing about that, I mean, we talk about faith, family, friends, and work, for example, the apex of family and friendship is the spousal relationship. That's the apex because that's somebody that you've adopted as your kin.

爱情的神经生物学真的很有趣，对吧？一开始是吸引力和性激素，然后当儿茶酚胺类物质参与进来时，就会出现强烈的渴望和对奖励的期待，这种兴奋感是因为去甲肾上腺素的释放，比如你会想，那条她发来的信息是什么？即便只是一个字又有什么关系，对吧？接着是血清素的下降，当你开始对另一个人反复思考的时候会出现血清素的明显减少，这种甜蜜的痛苦源于对另一个人的反复思考，从神经生物学的角度来看，这几乎与临床抑郁症没有区别。就好像，在突触中没有血清素一样。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

And it's the neurobiology of falling in love is so interesting, right? Starting with attraction and sex hormones, but then when the catecholamines get involved for, you know, intense desire and anticipation of reward and the ebullience that comes from, you know, the norepinephrine release that actually comes and wondering, does that text from her? It's one word. Who cares, right? And then the serotonin drop, the deep serotonin drop that actually happens when you start to ruminate on the other person, the sweet misery that comes from the rumination on the other person, which is, you know, pretty much indistinguishable neurobiologically from clinical depression. Right? It's like, there's no serotonin in the synapse.

最后但同样重要的是这些神经肽，比如催产素和加压素，尤其是那种能让你们在陪伴式爱情中联系在一起的力量。这正是你真正想要的。你已经接纳了那个人，他/她就是你的人，你的家人，你最好的朋友，你的爱人。他/她是那个真正分享你生命深层意义右脑的人。浪漫爱情的美妙之一在于，它帮助我理解哲学、神学、神经科学和心理学其实都是一回事。这一切都以一种美好的方式融合在一起。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

And then last but not least is these neuropeptides like oxytocin, gastropressin, but especially, you know, that bond you together in companionate love, which is what you actually want. You've adopted that person. That's your person. That's your kin. That's your best friend. That's your lover. That's the person who actually shares the right hemisphere of the deep meaning of your life. And, you know, one of the beautiful things about romantic love is it helps me understand how the philosophy and the theology and the neuroscience and the psychology, it's all one thing, man. It's all one thing. It all comes together in this beautiful way.

这就是为什么这件事情如此强大，以至于你和我都想要它，它是我们生活中不可或缺的。事实上，任何人都可以清楚地认识到，尽管世界上有许多优秀的技术和事物可供选择，我们却常常用时间去追求和消费的东西，尤其是我们的时间，实际上是在阻碍我们建立这些真正重要的东西。无论是与浪漫伴侣、职业还是朋友之间的关系，成瘾行为如工作狂、酗酒、色情等，都是在阻碍我们的成长。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

That's why it's such a powerful thing that you and I want in our lives, you and I need in our lives. Anyone can really start to clearly understand how, while there are wonderful technologies and things available in the world, that so much of what we're offered and fed and paying for with our time, especially our time, are ways to short-circuit the building of these things. For sure. Whether it's with a romantic partner or a vocation or with our friends or. Workaholism, alcoholism, pornography, all these things they short-circuit.

它就像直接让一个原本应该是由各种美好而复杂事物组成的绝妙关系短路了一样。但是这一切就只集中在某一个点上。今天我有点喜欢用比喻来说话，这就像之前我在这个播客上请了一位叫克里斯·麦柯迪的嘉宾，他研究植物药物，但不是研究迷幻药。他提到这个国家的问题是我们总是学会如何提取和合成植物中最有效的分子，结果是它们变得非常容易上瘾。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

It literally short-circuits the circuit that is supposed to be this magnificent, immensely complicated cocktail of things that you would call a really, truly amazing relationship. And it's just tapping into one thing. I am sort of living in the land of analogies today, but not unlike when I had a guy on this podcast, Chris McCurdy, who studies plant-based medicines, but not psychedelics. And he was talking about how the problem in this country is that we learn to isolate and synthesize the most potent of the plant molecules and they become very addictive.

所以，无论是止痛药、可卡因还是卡痛，但是在整个植物的形式中，这些东西实际上是平衡的。我认为这里有一个非常合适的类比：当我们试图只提取其中一种成分，并以高效能使用，而不愿意承担任何风险时，我们就失去了整体。当你将某个元素从整个体验中剥离开来时，它实际上就会变得有成瘾性，就会变得病态。自然来说，我们经历的许多过程和事物本来就是应该存在的。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

So whether they're painkillers or they're cocaine or they're kratom, but that in the whole plant form, these things actually had balance. And so there's a really, I think, an appropriate perhaps analogy there that like when we try and get one slice of this in high potency and not have to risk anything to get it, you lose the whole thing. When you shear something off from the whole experience, that's when it actually becomes addictive. That's when it becomes pathological. Naturally speaking, a lot of these processes, a lot of the things that we actually experience are supposed to be there.

看，我的意思是，我们非常擅长把一个小问题变成一场大危机。你知道吗？比如，哎呀，我头痛，我需要更强的药。我需要更强的药。我需要更强的药。去年有10万人死于鸦片类药物过量。这是真实发生的事情。我们还有其他类似的行为。顺便说一下，为了不让我们看起来道貌岸然，工作狂也是这类问题的典型例子。只是这种特定的成瘾在我们成为工作狂时，偏离了在地球上创造价值的自然、人道甚至神圣的过程。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

Look, I mean, we're so good at taking, at solving a little problem and creating a major crisis. You know? Like, oh man, that's like, I got a headache. I need something stronger. I need something stronger. I need something stronger. 100,000 people died of, you know, opiate overdoses or something last year. This is what actually happens. And then there are other things that we do as well. And by the way, you know, lest we look like we're, you know, holier than thou, workaholism is a classic case of this as well. It's just that that particular addiction sheared off from the natural, you know, humane and even divine process of creating value on this earth when we become workaholics.

结果就是人们因此给我们道贺。你知道吗，能想象有人会对我说：“安德鲁，你喝伏特加的能力真是惊人！昨晚你喝掉了两瓶750毫升的伏特加，彻底喝断片了。但我真是被你喝酒的技巧所震撼。你真有才华，真是个高手。”这就是我上的大学。那时候，你知道的，虽然我酒量不大，但大家总喜欢互相炫耀谁喝得更多。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

The result is that people congratulate us for it. You know, can you imagine somebody who said, Andrew, you are unbelievably good at drinking vodka. You put away two 750 milliliter bottles of that last night and, and, and you were completely blacked out. But I was amazed at how adroit you are. You're talented. You're a great drinker. This was the college I went to. Yeah. You know, and I wasn't a big drinker there, but people would try and impress each other with how much they could drink.

当你到了我们这个年纪时，如果你做这样的事情，人们会觉得你是一个可怜的酒鬼。但是，如果你到了我们这个年纪，比如说我62岁，只关注赚更多的钱、权力和名声，完全忽视家庭，大家却会觉得：老兄，你工作做得真好，你真厉害。就像我说，去年我做了多少次演讲，赚了多少常旅客积分？

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

By the time you're our age, however, if you're doing that, people are, you think that you're, you know, a pathetic drunk. But if you're our age, my age, and if I'm 62 years old, completely neglecting my family and doing only stuff to run up the scoreboard on money and power and fame or whatever, people are going to be like, dude, you're good at your job. You're awesome. You know, it's like I, yeah, you know how many speeches I gave last year? You know how many frequent flyer miles I got?

人们可能会说，这真的非常非常令人印象深刻。但关键是，这种行为脱离了自然的人类体验。这是一种成瘾的行为，是危险的，是病态的，对我们有害，会带来痛苦。是的，我想救了我的是我听到了一句话，我不记得是在哪里听到的，大意是"每个人都喜欢年轻的醉汉"。是啊，我当时就觉得，如果继续这样下去，结果不会好看。你听到这句话的时候多大？是在大学时。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

People are going to be like, it's really, really impressive. But the whole point is that sheared off from the natural human experience. It's an addictive behavior. It's dangerous. It's pathological. It's bad for us and it leads to misery. Yeah, I think what saved me was hearing the phrase, I don't know where I heard it was, everyone loves a young drunk. Yeah. And I was like, oh yeah, like this rolled forward does not look good. How old were you when you saw it? In college.

你很早就停止饮酒了。其实我有喝酒，但我很早就注意到问题了，主要是因为我那时学业比较忙，然后又开始锻炼身体，所以我基本上一直喝到四十岁出头，但喝得越来越少。哦，原来你有喝啊。是的，最后我终于决定不再喝了，我觉得自己该停下来了。我真的受够了。在我30多岁的时候，我喝得越来越多。但是，如果不喝酒，可能会显得不太合群和有些孤立。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

You stopped really early. No, I drank, but I noticed early on, mostly because I was doing a lot of catch up with my academics and then got into physical fitness and I drank basically until my early 40s, but less and less and less and less. Oh, you did. Okay. Yeah, and then finally was just like, no more. You just got to stop. I'm done. I'm done. I drank more and more and more and more of this stuff until my late 30s. But I probably, it was very socially unacceptable and isolating to not drink.

有些人常说学术圈的人都很无聊，但我会在开会时完胜他们。当他们在会议上筋疲力尽时，我还能精神抖擞地出现在他们面前。我不是那种认为美学、肌肉和苗条就是一切的人，但我看到一些人获得终身教职，感觉他们的状态很差，仿佛老了25岁，孩子也不开心，我听到的全是抱怨，我会心想：你没有好好照顾自己。我不想变成那样。所以我意识到也许我不是最聪明的，但我可以努力工作。如果我能多活几年，最终就能赶上甚至超越他们。但对我来说，这并不是一种竞争，我只是觉得那样的生活方式不适合我。所以我感到很幸运。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

People would be like, academics would be like, you're boring, but I'd kick their butt the next day at the meeting when they're all kind of like worked and then I'd see them and I'm not one of these people like things like, oh, aesthetics and muscle and leanness are all it, but I'd see people get tenure and I was like, you look like shit. I know. You look like you aged 25 years and your kids are miserable and all I hear are complaints about this and I'm like, you're not taking care of yourself. So I don't want to be like that. Yeah. So I figured I'm not the smartest, but I can work hard. Right. And if I get more years, then eventually I can catch up or get ahead. Yeah. But it wasn't really competitive for me. I also just didn't like how it felt. I lucked out.

无论如何，像你所描述的这种工作狂现象，是非常危险的。这通常是基于对成功的成瘾，也就是成功成瘾，是因得到奖赏、得到认可、得到加强而产生的。你获得了那小小的奖励，得到了对自身价值的肯定和理解。因此，成功成瘾会导致工作狂。而成功成瘾，归根结底，是源于一种想法，即通过努力工作能赢得爱，相信如果我做得足够多，我就足够好。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

But in any case, with the workaholism, as you're describing it, that is a very dangerous one. Yeah. That's usually a secondary affliction based on success addiction, the addiction to success, which comes down to that reward, that reinforcement, that reinforcement. You get that little reward, the reinforcement of your goodness, the understanding of yourself. And so success addiction leads to workaholism. Success addiction, once again, is down, is really downstream from, you know, earning love, from the belief that I can be enough if I do enough.

“人类行为现象”实际上是我们所看到的。这其中美妙之处在于，我谈到了行为科学的原理。我们也涉及到了哲学和神学。在这个节目中，以及在你的写作和学术研究中，你详细讨论了其背后的神经生物学机制，这一切都是我们奇妙构造的一部分。这些领域最终都汇聚到同一个点上，不像是一个方向引导到一个结果，另一个方向则导向另外的结果。相反，有许多不同的路径可以通向相同的真理。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

The human doing phenomenon is that actually what we see. The beautiful thing about this is that, you know, I talk about the behavioral science principles. We've touched on the philosophy. We've talked about the theology. You've talked so much about the mechanisms on this show and in your writing and in your scholarship about the neurobiology behind it and we're all wonderfully made. This all ties up in the same area. There's no, it's not like one thing leads in one direction and something else leads in another. On the contrary, you can get, there are many paths to these truths.

真正的遗憾在于我们不去寻找真相。真正的遗憾在于我们把自己从想成为的那种人应有的意义上分心，这就把我们带回到这次对话的一开始。假如你就是你想成为的那个人呢？你知道，通过在道德追求的领域中探索，我们实际上可以做到这一点，我认为这简直是个奇迹。我觉得这是一个令人难以置信的奇迹。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

The real pity is when we're not looking for the truth. The real pity is when we're distracting ourselves from what it actually means to be the people that we want to be, which leads us, you know, to the very beginning of this conversation. What if you were the person that you wanted to be? You know, that's, and the fact that we can actually do so by looking at this space of moral aspiration, I think that's a miracle. I think it's an incredible miracle.

在结束之前，我有两件事要说。首先是一个问题，然后是一个思考。所以我猜这两件事其实都是问题，因为那个思考是给你的。第一个问题是，对于今天听这次谈话的人来说，我们之前讨论了关于个人如何选择和处理闲暇的关系，你也提到了许多其他重要的点，人们可以回过头来再听，因为我们当然都有标记时间。但是，如果有一个问题或一组小问题，可以帮助任何年龄段的人重新调整方向，或者更好地在时间、空间和决策上定位，那会是什么问题？

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

Before we wrap, I have two things. First, a question and then, and then a consideration. So I suppose both are questions because the consideration is for you. The first question is for somebody listening to this conversation today, I mean, earlier we were talking about exploring one's choices about and relationship to leisure and you touched on a number of other important points that, you know, people can return to because we've, we timestamped these, of course. But if there's a question or a small set of questions that anyone at any age can ask themselves that can help them redirect or just better orient in space and time and choice making, what are those?

我的意思是，这类问题真的存在吗？有没有那种真正可以做到自我评估的方法？没有吧。就比如说，如果我们一起坐飞机，我会说：“嘿，谢谢你。”而且我们没有手机。我会问：“在我们分开之前，还有什么我应该考虑的吗？你有什么建议吗？或者有什么书可以推荐？”

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

I mean, or do those, do those sorts of questions exist? Is there a self-assessment that actually does that? No, well, just, you know, like if we were going to, if we were, you know, shared this time on an airplane, I'm like, hey, thanks, and we didn't have cell phones. I'm like, anything else I should think about before we part ways? Like, you got any suggestions? Yeah. You know, or a book recommend, whatever.

你今天说的很多内容都引发了更多的问题。这说明你的工作非常出色。我们的工作就像一个会自己舔的冰淇淋。哦，我好久没听到这个比喻了。以前我们常用这个比喻来形容一些我们准备拒绝的资助项目，所以我们还是不要这样吧。探索人们如何度过闲暇时间，理解愉悦与道德追求之间的关系，并努力将两者结合，这显然是件非常有意义的事情。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

So much of what you've said today is fodder for more questions. Yeah. Which means you've done, which is, Our work is so awesome. Yeah. Our work is like a self-licking ice cream cone. Nah, nah, well, oh man, I haven't heard that analogy in a long time. That's how we used to describe some grants that we were about to deny. So let's not do that. So asking about how one spends leisure, understanding this relationship between pleasure and moral aspiration and seeking to fuse those, because that clearly is a powerfully great thing to do.

谁不想多做一些这样的事情呢？我们是否可以每天或每周问自己一些类似的问题呢？是的，比如在我们离开健身房、参加完弥撒或做其他事情的时候。是的，有一些事情，比如我会尝试做一些自我反思，确保自己的行为和习惯是合适的。严格要求自己非常重要，你要比任何其他人对你的要求都高。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

Who wouldn't want to do more of that? Are there any other sort of probe questions that we might ask ourselves like once a day or once a week? Yeah. You know, while we're leaving the gym or mass or whatever. Yeah, yeah, what is the, yeah, and there are certain things that, you know, inventories that I actually try to take, you know, to make sure that my hygiene is appropriate, right? Holding yourself to high account is unbelievably important. Holding yourself to much higher account than anybody else would hold you.

这是为什么最幸福的人通常是那些即使在无人注视时也坚持做自己认为合适之事的人。这就是对自己诚实的核心。我们知道很多名人，通常他们在公众面前和私底下会有不同的形象，因为必须将两者区分开来。但是最幸福的名人是因为尽管成名带来了很多挑战，但他们依然能感到快乐。名气是唯一一种无法直接带来快乐的世俗奖励。尽管名气能带来机遇，但同时也限制了自由。那些能够在成名的情况下依然幸福的人，无论是在舞台上面对万人，还是私下与我们共进晚餐，表现都是一致的。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

That's one of the reasons that the happiest people are the people who have a strong sense of propriety that they practice when no one sees them. You know, that's the essence of being honest with yourself. You know, it's one thing that you and I know so many famous people and typically they have a public persona and a private persona just because you have to separate those particular things, but the happiest of famous people, which is hard because fame is the only one of the worldly rewards you can only ever be happy in spite of, never because of, right? That's the better answer to what I was asked earlier about like, yes, opens opportunities, limits freedoms, but you nailed it. Those people, the people who are happy in spite of being famous are the same people when you're alone at dinner with them as they are in front of 10,000 people in an arena. They are.

我认识这样的人。我知道像奥普拉·温弗瑞这样的人也是如此。奥普拉在餐桌上和在满是观众的嘈杂场馆里是同一个人。她是一个非常自洽的人，尽管她可能是世界上最著名的五个人之一，但她依然感到快乐。这真是太了不起了。我最近和她合著了一本书，这对我来说是一次关于自己领域的极佳学习经历，因为我通过观察她的生活获得了很多。但是，这样的人并不多。要做到这一点，就要对自己提出那些你会用来问别人的深度问题。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

And I know people like that. I know people like Oprah Winfrey is like that. Oprah Winfrey is the same person at the dinner table as she is in a screaming arena full of people and she's a well-integrated person and she's happy in spite of the fact that she's one of the probably five most famous people in the world. You know, it's extraordinary. I mean, I just co-authored a book with her which was an incredible learning experience about my own field by observing her life, right? But there aren't very many people like that. So the way to do that is to subject yourself to, you know, the queries that you would use on somebody else. You know, what are the probing questions?

在我们已有的协议中，通常是通过向人们提出一系列问题来进行的。我可以逐步讲解，比如说什么是我的偶像？我是否在侍奉我的偶像？类似的问题有很多。但从根本上来说，我们所有人都会感受到某种痛苦，比如来自现代世界的空虚感和无聊感。我们都会时不时地感到沮丧。有一套“为什么”的问题，这些问题探究的是我们是否真正接触到了我们自身幸福中最重要的“宏观营养素”，即我们生命的意义。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

And, you know, in protocols that we have, it's usually based on, you know, asking people a set of questions. You know, I could walk through what's my idol? Am I serving my idols? There are a bunch of things like that. But fundamentally, for example, we all can fall into suffering about, you know, sort of the sense of emptiness, the ennui that comes from, you know, the modern world. We all feel depressed from time to time. There is a set of questions, why questions, that interrogates whether or not we actually are in touch with the most important macronutrient of our own happiness, which is the meaning of our lives.

以下是我不断问自己的三个大问题，以及为什么我必须诚实作答，因为对自己诚实是进入道德空间的本质所在。首先，第一个问题是：为什么我认为事情会这样发生？我是否按照这个想法去行动？对于像我这样有宗教信仰的人来说，如果我说我认为事情是按照上帝的旨意发生的，但我的行为并不符合这一信念，那这将是痛苦的来源。我是否真的按照相信上帝的旨意是真实存在的这个信念去行动？或者我是否认为一切都取决于我自己，导致我对一切事情感到惊慌失措，对那些完全无法掌控的未来感到极度焦虑。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

Here are the three questions, the three big whys that I ask myself continuously, that I probe and I have to answer honestly because being honest with myself is the essence of getting into the moral space. Number one, why do I think things actually happen the way that they do? And am I acting in accordance with that? And for a religious person like me, if I say I think things happen the way they do because of the will of God, but I'm not acting that way, that's going to be a source of misery. Am I acting like I believe that the will of God exists and is true? Or am I acting like everything has to do with me, which means I'm freaking out about everything. I'm super stressed out about, you know, what's going to happen tomorrow that's completely out of my control.

我总是感到焦虑，不断地担心。担忧意味着缺乏信仰。所以，如果我说我要坚持自己的信仰，那么这种担忧就会立刻消失，对吗？你不应该因此感到内疚，而是应该按照真实的自我去行动。首先，这是哲学家们关于一致性的问题：为什么事情会以这样的方式发生？我是否也以这样的方式行事？其次，我为什么要做我正在做的事情？这是关于人生目标的问题。你要知道，目标和意义不是一回事。目标是意义的一个子类别。那么，我为什么要做我正在做的事情呢？

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

I'm anxious all the time. I'm worrying continuously. Worry is evidence of a lack of faith. And so therefore, if I say I'm committing to my faith, it immediately extinguishes worry, right? You shouldn't feel guilty about it. You should act according to the person that you are. Number one, that's the coherence question for philosophers. Why do things happen the way they do? Am I acting that way? Second, why am I doing what I'm doing? That's the purpose question. You know, that's the purpose in life. That's purpose and meaning are not the same thing. Purpose is a subcategory of meaning. Why am I doing the things that I am actually doing?

然后，再下一个问题是，这与我的信念一致吗？我所做的事情是否符合我的信念？但我为什么要这样做呢？顺便说一下，对你我来说，也许是因为我在追逐偶像，因为我想要更多的控制，因为我想要更多陌生人的赞赏，因为我想要更多的钱，因为我想要感觉良好。这与我的信念一致吗？最后一个问题是，我的生活为什么重要？这实际上是问，对谁来说重要？我是否在按照那些对我的生活真正重要的人来行动？我是否这样做了？我是否在边缘化别人？

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

And then the next question beyond that is, is that in accord with my beliefs? Am I doing the things that I'm doing in accord with my beliefs? But why am I doing them? And by the way, for you and me, it might be because I'm chasing my idol. Because I want more control. Because I want more adoration of strangers. Because I want more money. Because I want to feel good. Is that in accord with my beliefs? And then the last part is, why does my life matter? And that's really to whom? Am I acting according to the people to whom my life actually matters? Am I acting that way? Am I marginalizing?

顺便说一下，安德鲁，我在这方面犯了很多次错误。当我担任一家非常重要的大型非营利组织的CEO时，我曾在其结束阶段，为我开始撰写的一本书采访过一群非常著名且富有的金融专业人士。这本书是在我离职并回到学术界后出版的，我把它命名为《从力量到力量》，内容是关于随着年龄增长如何变得更幸福。有位女士，她真是个亿万富翁，令人难以置信。她所在的公司非常有名，她在跟我讲述她的成就。我当时心想，恭喜你，那真是太好了。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

And by the way, Andrew, I've screwed this up so many times. When I was a CEO running this big non-profit organization, which was so important, right? I was, at one point at the very end of it, I was interviewing a bunch of very famous and rich financial professionals for a book that I was starting to write that came out after I left and when I was already back in academia. I called it From Strength to Strength. It was a book about getting happier as you get older. And this woman is like a billionaire. I mean, unbelievable. Named firm. Famous. And she's telling me about her achievements. I'm like, congratulations. That's great.

她说：“我太不开心了。”我说：“那跟我说说吧，姐妹，怎么了？”她说：“我和我丈夫结婚了，但就像是室友。我有成年的孩子，关系还算和睦。我觉得我的员工都听我话，但我觉得他们有点怕我。我觉得我的决策能力不再清晰。我不喜欢这种状态，但不知道还能做什么。”她说：“我去看医生，医生说我需要戒酒，多去健身房，但我还是继续喝酒，也没去健身。”

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

She says, I'm so unhappy. I said, well, talk to me, sister. What gives? She said, my husband and I were married but were roommates. You know, I have adult kids with a cordial relationship. I think my employees are, they do what I say but I think they're afraid of me. I don't think my decision making is crisp anymore. I don't love it but I don't know what else to do. She said, I go to the doctor and the doctor says, you need to stop drinking and get into the gym but I keep drinking and I don't go to the gym.

她说，当我长大后，我小时候常去教堂，我很喜欢那样。我一直想要那样的生活，但我现在不去教堂了，也不知道为什么。她问：教授，我应该怎么办呢？我说，你不需要哈佛教授告诉你答案。其实你已经给自己写下了处方。带上一个纪念品，离开一下你现在的环境。和你的丈夫一起外出，重新了解他。搬到离孩子更近的地方。参加戒酒互助会（AA）。去健身。回到教堂看看。答案就在你眼前。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

She said, when I grew up, I went to church when I was a little girl and I loved that. I always wanted that and I don't go to church and I don't know why. And she says, professor, what am I supposed to do? I said, you don't need a Harvard professor. You just wrote your own prescription. Take a souvenir in your company and step back. Go away with your husband and get to know him. Go move closer to your kids. Get into AA. Go to the gym. Go back to church. Look, it's right there.

她说，我知道，我知道，我知道。我问她，那为什么不呢？为什么你没这么做？你为什么不这样做？她沉默了很久，最后才说，因为我一直选择做特别的人而不是幸福的人，这话就像一把刀扎在我心上，因为那时的我也是这样。你知道我错过了多少场少棒比赛吗？说实话，少棒比赛确实很无聊。但那是我孩子的比赛。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

She says, I know, I know, I know. I said, so why not? Why didn't you do that? Why don't you? And she was silent for a long time and finally she said, because I've always chosen to be special rather than happy and that was like a knife to my heart because at that point in my life, me too. You know how many Little League games I didn't go to? Look, Little League games are boring. Let's be honest. But it's my kids.

你知道我错过了多少个生日，因为我一直在努力让自己变得与众不同、成功，并受到那些不在乎我的人的喜爱吗？这种与众不同是一种与生俱来的动物本能。道德上的追求则是选择快乐而不是这种特殊感，这就涉及到生命的意义问题。我的生命为何重要，对谁重要？我是否根据自己对这个问题的回答来负责任地生活？

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

You know how many birthdays that I missed because I was trying to be special and successful and adored by people who don't care about me? And that specialness is that's an animal impulse that is hardwired into us. The moral aspiration is to choose happiness over that particular specialness and that's the significance question. Why does my life matter and to whom? And am I acting in accord and responsibly with my answer to that question?

这就是提问的过程。你没有让阿瑟·布鲁克斯教授失望。太棒了！这些问题非常好，我会一遍又一遍地问，每个人都应该不断地思考和尝试自己去回答。所以我真的很感动。谢谢。我也是。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

That's the interrogation. You do not disappoint Professor Arthur Brooks. That's awesome. Those are great, great questions that I will be asking over and over and that everyone should consider asking and trying to answer over and over for themselves. So I'm really moved. Thank you. Me too.

你知道吗，我做这个播客已经有一段时间了，偶尔会有嘉宾坐下来，把我们带到一个全新的境地。我知道你就是这样的人，因为我们之前聊过，你让我有了很多新的思考。我会反复听这期节目，并为自己记点笔记。真的，非常感谢你。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

You know, I've been doing this podcasting thing a while now and every once in a while someone sits down here and takes us someplace else. I knew you were that guy because we had shared a conversation before but you've given me so much to think about. I'm going to be listening to this and taking notes for my own reasons. No, thank you. Thank you.

真是太荣幸了。你一次又一次地以你的科学知识和赋予科学的灵魂祝福了我。这就是你带给所有工作的神奇公式。非常感谢。我生活中总有几个人，他们年长我大约十岁，我非常尊敬他们。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

What an honor it is. You've blessed me again and again and again and again with the scientific knowledge that you bring to it but the soul you actually bring to the science. That's the magic formula that you actually bring to all your work. Well, thank you. I have a couple of people in my life who are about I've always had a couple of people in my life who are about 10 years older I really look up to.

我非常敬仰你，真的。我很钦佩你，这个名单很短但很有影响力，我不会在镜头前告诉你还有谁在里面，不过这个名单就像是一个明星团队。我希望能够更加像你，我这样说是出于对你的尊重。你是一个人，也有自己的困难，但我认为，对于处于某个发展阶段的人来说，关注那些大致走过相似道路但比自己走得更远的人是很重要的，并从中获取有用的信息。所以，我很感激你。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

I look up to you. I really do. I admire you and it's a short list but it's a potent one and I won't tell you who else is on camera who else is on there but like it's an all-star team. I aspire to be more like you and I say that with all the respect that you're a human and you have your struggles but I think it's important for anyone at a given developmental stage to look at people who've migrated the path more or less that they're on but are ahead of them and get some useful information so I appreciate that.

所以，不管你喜不喜欢，你对我来说就是一位导师。谢谢，非常感谢。这对我意义重大，我们都在前进的道路上。我们都有自己的生活路径，几乎每个宗教传统都有朝圣之旅。如果你走遍印度，你会看到乞讨者朝着圣城步行而去。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

So whether you like it or not you're a mentor to me. Thank you, thank you. That means the world and we're all on the path. We're all on the path. We all have our life is every religious tradition has pilgrimages almost every religious tradition. If you go across India you see mendicants that are actually walking toward a holy city.

在基督教信仰中，我们有三大朝圣地——耶路撒冷、罗马和圣地亚哥-德孔波斯特拉（这条路线也称为圣雅各之路）。这些朝圣之旅象征着我们在生活中实际追求的目标，因此，它们是一种深刻神秘且充满灵性的体验。我建议大家尝试一次从法国边境到圣地亚哥-德孔波斯特拉的500英里徒步旅行。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

In the Christian faith we have three big pilgrimages to Jerusalem, to Rome and to Santiago de Compostela which is the Camino de Santiago and these pilgrimages are metaphorical for what we're actually trying to do with our lives which is why they're such deeply mystical and spiritual experiences. I recommend that everybody go on a 500 mile walk across northern Spain from the French border to Santiago de Compostela.

你不是跪着做的吧？我没有跪着做，但在过去的八天里做了两次，因为我妻子不肯做超过八天。我爱我妻子，但重点是，你意识到这是你生活的一个隐喻。我们就是在这样走过生活。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

You didn't do it on your knees did you? I did not do it on my knees but I've done it just the last eight days two times because my wife won't do more than eight days and I love my wife but the point is you have what you realize is that that's a metaphor for your life. We're walking through this life.

我们都在学习。安德鲁正在朝圣，亚瑟也在朝圣。每一个正在关注我们的人也都在朝圣，这意味着进步，更意味着通过每天一点一滴的小进步而实现的卓越，并保持对形而上的真理开放的态度。因此，能够在你们的朝圣之路上成为路旁的一座小石头教堂，这让我深受感动。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

We're all learning. Andrew's on a pilgrimage. Arthur is on a pilgrimage. Every single person watching us is on a pilgrimage and that means progress but that actually means the excellence that actually comes from making progress in little ways every single day and being open to metaphysical truths. So it moves me a lot that I could be some little stone church on the side of the road on your pilgrimage.

你绝对是这样的，通过与别人分享，你对他们来说也是如此。我确实说过我还有一个问题或考虑，我被你分享的内容深深打动，并受到启发。我觉得值得考虑这个问题，但你不必在这里回答，我们可以把它作为一个悬念留在这里。如果你愿意，也可以回答。在有结构的问题背景下，人们会从你这里受益良多。我知道你在播客中做过一些这样的分享，我们今天也谈到了一些。你有你的书籍等等，但是探索去做一个自我探索系列可能会很有趣，或者在某个时候和你一起进行。我们可以确定是在这里，还是在其他地方。如果你愿意考虑一下如何更全面地探索事物，我也可以从中学习更多。我也是。我的答案是：好的。太棒了，我们一起来做吧。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

You absolutely are and in sharing this with other people you are to them too. So I did say I had one more question slash consideration so I'm so inspired and struck by what you shared that I think it would be worth considering perhaps and don't feel obligated to answer here maybe we just leave it a cliffhanger and not answer on here or if you want you can. People would really benefit from hearing from you more in the context of structured sets of questions. I know you do this on your podcast and we've touched on some of that today. You have your books and so forth but it would be fun to explore the possibility of doing like a self-exploration series or with you at some point and we can figure out the venue if it's on here or it's elsewhere but if you'd be willing to consider like ways we could explore things more fully also selfishly so I can learn more from you. Likewise. My answer is yes. Awesome. Let's do it man.

好吧。那就开始吧。让我们组建一个乐队。太好了。是的，我喜欢这个。上帝保佑你。安德鲁，上帝也保佑你。感谢你为我带来的所有东西以及感谢观看节目的每一个人。我很荣幸能成为其中一员。感谢你参加我今天与Arthur Brooks博士的讨论。如果你想了解他的工作并找到他众多优秀书籍的链接，请查看节目的说明。如果你从这个播客中学到了东西或者喜欢它，请订阅我们的YouTube频道。这是一种非常好的支持我们的无成本方式。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

All right. Let's do it. Let's get a band together. Fantastic. Yeah. I love it. God bless you. God bless you too Andrew. Thank you for all the things that you're bringing to me and for all the people who are watching. I'm honored to be part of this. Thank you for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. Arthur Brooks. To learn more about his work and to find links to his many excellent books please see the show note caption. If you're learning from and or enjoying this podcast please subscribe to our YouTube channel. That's a terrific zero cost way to support us.

另外，请在Spotify和Apple上点击“关注”按钮来关注我们的播客。在这两个平台上，您都可以为我们的节目留下最高五颗星的评价，您现在也可以在Spotify和Apple上给我们留言。请查看在本期节目开头和过程中提到的赞助商，这也是支持我们播客的最佳方式。如果您对我有任何问题，或者对播客、嘉宾或您希望我在Huberman Lab播客中讨论的话题有任何意见，请在YouTube的评论区留下。我会阅读所有评论。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

In addition please follow the podcast by clicking the follow button on both Spotify and Apple. And on both Spotify and Apple you can leave us up to a five-star review and you can now leave us comments at both Spotify and Apple. Please also check out the sponsors mentioned at the beginning and throughout today's episode. That's the best way to support this podcast. If you have questions for me or comments about the podcast or guests or topics that you'd like me to consider for the Huberman Lab podcast please put those in the comment section on YouTube. I do read all the comments.

对于那些还不知道的人，我有一本新书即将出版。这是我第一本书，书名是《协议：人体操作手册》。这本书是我花费五年多时间精心打造的，基于我超过30年的研究与经验。书中涵盖了包括睡眠、锻炼、压力控制，以及提升专注力和动力的完整方案。当然，我也提供了书中提到的所有方案的科学依据。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

For those of you that haven't heard I have a new book coming out. It's my very first book. It's entitled Protocols An Operating Manual for the Human Body. This is a book that I've been working on for more than five years and that's based on more than 30 years of research and experience. And it covers protocols for everything from sleep to exercise to stress control protocols related to focus and motivation. And of course I provide the scientific substantiation for the protocols that are included.

这本书现在可以在protocolsbook.com上进行预售。在那里，你可以找到各种供应商的链接，选择你最喜欢的。再次提醒，这本书的名称是《Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body》。如果你还没有在社交媒体上关注我，我在所有社交媒体平台上的账号都是Huberman Lab。包括Instagram、X、Threads、Facebook和LinkedIn。在这些平台上，我会讨论科学以及与科学相关的工具，其中有一部分内容与Huberman Lab播客的内容相重叠，但也有很多是Huberman Lab播客没有涉及的独特信息。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

The book is now available by presale at protocolsbook.com. There you can find links to various vendors. You can pick the one that you like best. Again, the book is called Protocols An Operating Manual for the Human Body. And if you're not already following me on social media I am Huberman Lab on all social media platforms. So that's Instagram, X, Threads, Facebook and LinkedIn. And on all those platforms I discuss science and science related tools some of which overlaps with the content of the Huberman Lab podcast but much of which is distinct from the information on the Huberman Lab podcast.

再次提醒，在所有社交媒体平台上，都是 Huberman Lab。如果你还没有订阅我们的神经网络通讯，现在可以订阅。这是一份免费的每月通讯，包括播客摘要，以及我们称之为协议的内容，以1到3页PDF的形式呈现，涵盖了如何优化睡眠、提升多巴胺、进行刻意冷暴露等主题。我们还有一个基础健身协议，包含心血管训练和阻力训练。所有这些内容都是完全免费的。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

Again, it's Huberman Lab on all social media platforms. And if you haven't already subscribed to our Neural Network Newsletter, the Neural Network Newsletter is a zero cost monthly newsletter that includes podcast summaries as well as what we call protocols in the form of one to three page PDFs that cover everything from how to optimize your sleep, how to optimize dopamine, deliberate cold exposure. We have a foundational fitness protocol that covers cardiovascular training and resistance training. All of that is available completely zero cost.

您只需访问 hubermanlab.com，点击右上角的菜单选项，向下滚动找到“新闻通讯”并输入您的电子邮件。我需要强调的是，我们绝不会与任何人分享您的电子邮件。再次感谢您参与今天与亚瑟·布鲁克斯博士的讨论。最后，非常感谢您对科学的兴趣。

▶ 英文原文 ⏱

You simply go to hubermanlab.com go to the menu tab in the top right corner, scroll down to newsletter and enter your email. And I should emphasize that we do not share your email with anybody. Thank you once again for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. Arthur Brooks. And last but certainly not least, thank you for your interest in science.

The Art of True Happiness | Dr. Arthur Brooks

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