91. Do You Savor or Gobble?
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摘要
What’s the difference between people who preserve special things and people who devour them right away? Why do we love to binge-watch? And did Adam really eat an apple? This episode originally aired on March 20th, 2022.
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普通的小学生可能会捅老师一刀。我是安吉拉·达克沃斯。我是史蒂芬·杜布纳。您正在收听《没有愚蠢问题》节目。今天的话题是：享受某种事物与贪婪地消耗它的人有什么区别？这让我对棉花糖理论更加怀疑，因为你会认为我显然是那种只吃一个棉花糖的人。安吉拉，我有一个肯定没有标准答案的问题。哦，我最喜欢的那种问题。问题如下：当你得到一些新的、有价值的或者只是你很想要的东西时，你个人更倾向于珍惜它，把它留作特殊场合使用，尽量保持它的新鲜状态？还是因为太喜欢这件东西，想马上尽可能多地使用？根据你给出的答案，我想知道这个答案可能会对一个人有怎样的说明。
▶ 英文原文 ⏱
The average elementary school student would have knifed the teacher. I'm Angela Duckworth. I'm Stephen Dubner. And you're listening to No Stupid Questions. Today on the show, what is the difference between a person who savors and someone who devours? This makes me even more suspicious of the marshmallow theory because. Because you're thinking I am a one marshmallow girl, obviously. Angela, I have a question for which there is certainly no right answer. Oh, my favorite kind of question. The question is as follows. When you get something new and or valuable or just desirable, are you personally more inclined to treasure it and save it for special occasions and maybe try to preserve it, keep it as new as possible? Or are you so in love with a thing that you just want to use it as much as possible right away? And then depending on which answer you give, I want to know what that answer might say about a given person.
我是那种完全立刻使用东西的人。我知道这一点。我认为在很多方面，你和我很相似，或者说有些相似。是的，不过我觉得在这一点上，我们可能不太一样。你是那种会储存东西的人。"储存"这个词真的很慷慨。你是个保护者，一个保存者，一个推迟消费的人。是的，我不知道这是不是因为在资源相对有限的家庭中长大，还因为我的父母都是经历过大萧条时代的人。这种背景下成长的人常常会有一种对稀缺的恐惧。不过我也喜欢把东西保持在良好的状态，我希望它们看起来和感觉上总是崭新而新鲜的。
▶ 英文原文 ⏱
I am a complete use it right away person. I knew it. I think there are many ways in which you and I are alike or alike-ish. Yes. And this is one where I suspected that we were quite not alike. You are a saver. A saver is a very generous word. A protector, a preserver. A consumption delayer. Yeah. I don't know whether this comes from growing up in a family where resources were fairly limited, but also growing up in a family where both parents were Depression-era parents. And that creates a whole fear of scarcity. But I also like things to be kept in good shape. Like, I want them to appear and feel fresh and new.
我认为这在某种程度上是一种对原罪的持续恐惧。什么？你要追溯到亚当和夏娃？嗯，当我还是个天主教男孩时，我被教导说我们今天在教堂的原因是因为亚当吃了苹果。不过，顺便说一下，那其实不是苹果。我们都知道吗？哦，我之前不知道。不，并没有什么苹果。那是假的消息吗？我会说那是假的消息。如果你看看《创世记》，这里有一段英文：当女人，也就是夏娃，看到那棵树可以当作食物而且赏心悦目，并且令人渴望能得智慧时，她就摘下果子吃了。她也给了她丈夫一些，他也吃了。
▶ 英文原文 ⏱
I think it's an enduring fear of original sin in a way. What? You're going to go back to Adam and Eve? Well, when you learn about original sin as a young Catholic boy, which I was before I became a Jewish man, literally we were taught the reason we're here in church today is because Adam ate the apple. Which, by the way, wasn't an apple. Do we all know that? Oh, I didn't know that. No, there was no apple. Was that fake news? I would say it was fake news. If you look at Genesis, here's a bit in English. When the woman, that's Eve, saw that the tree was good for eating and a delight to the eyes and that the tree was desirable as a source of wisdom, she took of its fruit and ate. She also gave some to her husband and he ate.
关于这种水果的种类，它仅被描述为树上的果实。因此，如今在现代希伯来语中，苹果的词是 "tepuach"。但在圣经时代，"tepuach" 只是一个泛指水果的词。我非常确定苹果并不是伊甸园本土的果实。哦，所以你推理得出结论，可能不是苹果。嗯，我是在阅读那些做出这个推论的人。但是无论那种果实是什么，关键在于如果当初没有犯下原罪，我们都会以完美无瑕的状态来到这个世界，生活在天堂中，如此持续下去。
▶ 英文原文 ⏱
As for the type of fruit, it's just described as fruit of the tree. So these days in modern Hebrew, the word for apple is tepuach. But in biblical times, tepuach was just a word for generic fruit. And I'm pretty sure that apples were not native to the land of Eden. Oh, so you're putting two and two together and you're saying, in conclusion, probably not an apple. Well, I'm reading the people who put two and two together. Okay. But whatever the fruit was, the idea is that had that original sin not been committed, then we would have all been brought into the world perfect and in paradise and so on and so on and so on.
这样一个概念对儿童来说有点奇怪，我认为，这就是说你生来就带有一种“标记”。你有点像是生来就有缺陷。说到苹果，最后一次买iPhone大概是三年前，我在买的当天就把它摔了，屏幕裂了，真让我伤心。但你知道，这其实是另一个话题。为什么要设计一种显然是世界上最受欢迎的设备，却让它在拿出盒子时如此容易损坏，以至于你还得买一个后期市场的保护壳呢？
▶ 英文原文 ⏱
So that's a weird concept to learn, I think, as a child, which is to say that you are born with a mark. You're kind of born broken. And speaking of Apple, the last time I bought an iPhone, which was maybe three years ago, I dropped it the day I bought it, cracked the screen. Oh, this is making me so sad. But, you know, well, this is a whole other conversation. But why would you design a device that is obviously one of the most desirable devices in the world and make it so easy to break out of the box that you have to buy this aftermarket protector?
是啊，我知道。这就像买车时说，回家后再安装安全带，行吗？无论如何，这几年来，我已经学会了和这个裂缝共存。对于我来说，这是一种尝试与不完美或有缺陷的事物相处的练习，因为我知道那不是我的本性。而且不得不说，我还算挺成功的。好吧，我有很多东西想要梳理一下。但我首先想弄清楚的是，为什么我们在伊甸园里？亚当和夏娃、原罪和消费之间有什么关系呢？
▶ 英文原文 ⏱
Yeah, I know. It'd be like buying a car and saying, put your seatbelts in when you get home, okay? In any case, I have learned to live with that crack for a few years now. And for me, it's a bit of an exercise in trying to live with imperfect or broken things because I know that is not my nature. And I've been pretty successful, I have to say. Okay, I have so much to unpack here. But the first thing I want to unpack is, why are we in the Garden of Eden? Like, what's the connection between Adam and Eve and original sin and consuming?
我的想法是，当你在儿童时代学习和接受原罪的概念时，你就会理解人类本质上带有某种缺陷，这种观念认为你的目标是通过忏悔或善行等方式去纠正或处理这种缺陷。这让你觉得，如果你能换个角度思考或者时光倒流，保持那个原本完美的东西不被破坏，那你可能会过得更好。嗯，我明白。是的，我认为如果你长大后总想着不要破坏那些完美的事物，并且在犹豫时选择不消费，或许这也包含在里面。
▶ 英文原文 ⏱
My thinking is that when you learn and embrace as a child the concept of original sin, this notion that damage is inherent to the human condition and that your purpose then is to correct that damage or address it through penitence or good deeds, et cetera, et cetera. It does give you the impression that if only you could flip the script or go back in time and take the thing that was perfect and not mess it up, then you'd be better off. Mm, I see. Yeah. I think it's possible that if you grow up and you think, like, don't screw things up that are perfect, and also maybe when in doubt, don't consume, maybe there's also that there.
哦，好的。这有道理。我喜欢你即使在最怀疑的时候也依然如此善良。你知道莫·伯格是谁吗？或许没有。他是一名职业棒球运动员，非常聪明。在棒球的非赛季期间，他用了几年时间在哥伦比亚大学拿到了法律学位。然后，在第二次世界大战期间，他成为美国战略情报局（CIA的前身OSS）的间谍。
▶ 英文原文 ⏱
Oh, yeah. That makes some sense. I love how kind you are, even in the deepest of your skepticism. Do you know who Mo Berg was, by any chance? No. He was a professional baseball player, super smart. He got a law degree at Columbia in a couple of years by doing his work during the off-season of baseball. And then he became a spy for the U.S. during World War II for the OSS, the precursor of the CIA.
总之，他有一个癖好就是对报纸的痴迷。他每天都要阅读用多种语言写的报纸，甚至会在棒球场的休息区里读。但如果有人先打开那些报纸，只是稍微看了一下，他就无法继续读了，因为在他看来，报纸被“破坏”了。这听起来有点像强迫型人格障碍（OCPD）。我能告诉你什么呢？在这方面，我和莫·伯格有同感。而我想，你大概没有这种感觉。
▶ 英文原文 ⏱
Anyway, one of his obsessions was newspapers. He read many papers every day in several languages, often reading in a baseball dugout. But if someone else opened any of those newspapers first just to take a look, he couldn't read it. It was spoiled to him. It sounds like a little OCPD, obsessive-compulsive personality disorder. What can I tell you? I identify with Mo Berg in that regard. And you don't, I assume.
什么？不，一点也不。这里有一种被宠坏和未被宠坏的对比。那这个呢？家具上的塑料套，你怎么看？嗯，我是和很多亲戚邻居一起长大的，他们家的整个房子都被塑料包起来了。也许这就是我不喜欢保存东西的原因吧。我觉得那样非常愚蠢。
▶ 英文原文 ⏱
What? No, not at all. There is this sort of spoiled versus unspoiled. What about this? What about plastic slipcovers on furniture? What's your position on that? Well, having grown up with many, many relatives and neighbors who, like, the whole house is laminated. I mean, maybe that's why I don't like to preserve things. I thought it was so dumb.
我当时心里想，什么情况？实际上，有个朋友（名字我就不说了，但你知道我在说谁）让我想起了一件事。我去过他们家，这个人和我是同龄人，不是什么叔叔阿姨或者住在街尾的老邻居，就是一个朋友。结果他们家的沙发都套着沙发套，电视遥控器也用保鲜膜包着。我当时真的是，无语。
▶ 英文原文 ⏱
I was like, what? In fact, a friend who shall remain nameless, but you know who you are. I remember going to their house. This is a contemporary of mine. This isn't even, like, an auntie or an uncle or an old neighbor down the street. This is, like, a friend. Everything is slipcovered. The remote control is wrapped in saran wrap. And I was like, really?
那么，这个人是否有一些特征让你觉得他们具有那种保存物品的倾向？我的意思是，他们是亚洲人。我的许多亲戚，不仅仅是亚洲人，你知道的，有的人会用保鲜膜包裹他们的遥控器。很多文化都有这样的做法。我可以证明这一点。此外，他们可能比较节俭，可能是因为东西不多，所以特别想保存好这些东西。
▶ 英文原文 ⏱
Now, does this person have any characteristics that you would connect to that preservation appetite? I mean, they're Asian. A lot of my relatives, I'm not saying that only Asians, you know, saran wrap their remote controls. Many, many cultures also have these practices. I can vouch for that, by the way. And maybe they're frugal. Maybe there's sort of, like, you don't have a lot and you really want to preserve it.
但是你有没有在夏天坐过沙发，用大腿直接接触过沙发？你知道，当你站起来时，那种大腿被吸住的声音，还有大腿上那些红红的、斑驳的印子，因为你一直贴在塑料沙发套上。我得说，我觉得这看起来不太好。我记得我小的时候第一次坐这种沙发时，我稍微滑了一下。我当时觉得很棒，因为通常坐沙发时，你会直接陷进去。而这个却更像是一种小小的滑行体验，就像滑梯一样。
▶ 英文原文 ⏱
But have you ever sat on a couch in the summer with your thighs? You know that suction sound when you get up and your thighs are all, like, red and splotchy because you've been adhered to the plastic slipcovers? I have to say, I don't think it's a good look. I remember the first time I sat on one when I was little and I slid a little bit. And I thought it was awesome because, you know, mostly couches, you just settle in. And this was, like, a little bit of a ride. Slip and slide.
让我问问你，这件事情并不是关于我那些怪异、保护性质的收藏习惯。这主要是关于你的。首先，你是消费者，你希望立即消费。那么，你和心理学领域对这种想法有什么看法呢？也就是对某物的消费的期待感以及延迟消费的行为。
▶ 英文原文 ⏱
But let me ask you, look, this is not about me and my weird, protective, preservationist collection tendencies. What this is about is, well, first of all, you are the consumer. You want to consume it immediately. What do you and what does your field of psychology have to say about this notion? Anticipation of the consumption of something and delaying the consumption of something.
好的，史蒂芬，如你所知，在过去大约60年里，有很多关于延迟满足的研究。嗯，不过有趣的是，这些研究都集中在当延迟满足是正确选择的时候。这个概念在著名的棉花糖实验中得到了体现：四岁的孩子面临这样的选择，是稍后得到两个棉花糖还是现在就得到一个棉花糖。
▶ 英文原文 ⏱
Well, as you know, Stephen, there's a lot of research over the last, say, 60 years on delay of gratification. Mm-hmm. Interestingly, though, this research is all about delaying gratification when the right choice, as it were, is to delay gratification. This plays out in the famous marshmallow task where four-year-old children are given the following choice, two marshmallows later or one marshmallow now.
事实上，这个实验要求你问孩子他们真正偏好的是什么，只有当孩子表示他们更想稍后得到两个时，实验才会继续进行。请原谅打扰。如果不介意的话，我需要问你这个问题。棉花糖实验或研究的重要性在于，它显示了延迟满足至少与生活中更好的结果有关联。
▶ 英文原文 ⏱
In fact, this experiment requires that you ask the child which they would really prefer, and they only keep going with the experiment if the child says, I would really prefer to have two later. Now, pardon the interruption. If you don't mind, I just have to ask you this. The importance of the marshmallow study or studies is that a delayed gratification was shown to be correlated, at least, with better outcomes in life.
我从中一直得到的启示是，能够推迟满足感、为了更大回报而愿意等待的孩子，会把这种倾向应用到很多事情上，比如学习、储蓄和照顾身体。他们愿意通过锻炼来投资于更好的健康等。所以，如果这个发现是真的，那么你在某种程度上是一个例外，因为你告诉我们，你是那种喜欢立刻消费的人。
▶ 英文原文 ⏱
And the lesson that I have always taken away from that is children who are able to delay gratification for a bigger payout later will apply that same tendency to a lot of things like education and savings and taking care of your body, being willing to invest in exercise, let's say, to pay off for the better health later and so on. And so if that finding is true, you are, what, an anomaly to some degree because you have told us that you are the consume it right away person.
你会吃掉那唯一的一颗棉花糖，还是会等着以后得到两颗呢？这正是我的观点，史蒂芬。在那个棉花糖测试中，很明显你非常明确地想要延迟满足。问题在于，这个四岁的孩子能等多少秒？这和有人喜欢在晚饭后吃甜点，有人喜欢在晚饭前吃甜点是不一样的。
▶ 英文原文 ⏱
Would you have eaten the single marshmallow or would you have waited for the two later? Well, that's exactly my point, Stephen. In the marshmallow task, it's super clear that you really, really, really unambiguously want to delay. And the question is, how many seconds can this four-year-old wait? So it's not one of those like, oh, some people prefer to have their dessert after dinner and some people prefer to have it before dinner. It's different from that.
我确实认为，还有一个来自心理学的概念叫“预期效用”。哦，这个概念其实更多来自经济学。让我想起了边沁。对，我是说，当我们思考效用的时候，我会想到边沁，因为效用是一个很重要的概念，经济学家有他们看待效用的方式。我觉得心理学家看待这个概念的方式有些不同。对。
▶ 英文原文 ⏱
I do think, though, there's another concept from psychological science called anticipatory utility. Ooh. It's actually more from economics. It makes me think of Bentham. Right. I mean, I think of Bentham when we think about utility generally, because utility is a great concept and economists have their way of looking at it. I think psychologists look at it a bit differently, though. Yes.
你知道，心理学家几乎不用 "效用" 这个词，尽管心理学和经济学之间的差距正在不断缩小。每天都在我们眼前变小。你知道，我一半的时间和经济学家在一起，一半的时间和心理学家在一起。我不是促使差距缩小的原因，只是这种趋势的一个体现。但在经济学中，"效用" 其实并没有得到特别明确的定义。大致来说，可以把它理解为幸福，对吧？它通常被定义为个人或者个体想要最大化的东西。根据经典经济理论，我们可以理解个体所做的决定是为了最大化他们的效用，也就是在减少成本的同时增加收益。
▶ 英文原文 ⏱
You know, psychologists don't use the term utility nearly as much, although the gap between psychology and economics is getting smaller and smaller. Shrinking every day before our eyes. You know, half the time I hang out with economists and half the time I hang out with psychologists. I am not the cause of the shrinking of the gap. I am just a symptom of the shrinking of the gap. But utility, of course, in economics is not super well-defined, really. Roughly, you could say it's happiness, right? It's often kind of just defined as that which an individual agent or an individual is trying to maximize. And we can understand a decision that an individual makes as one which we assume under classical economic theory to be maximizing their utility. So minimizing their costs and maximizing their benefits.
现在，期待效用是一个相对较新的概念，因为如你所说，效用的概念可以追溯到边沁那个年代，甚至更早。或者说，可能追溯到伊甸园。我不认为旧约提到过这点，但或许暗含了这个意思。乔治·洛文斯坦是一位行为经济学家，他在80年代写了一篇关于期待效用的论文。这个新颖的想法是，我们不仅要考虑你目前消费所带来的效用，还要考虑未来消费的期待也能在今天带来效用。这就像是未来版的“品味”。比如，那次我还没去的假期会很棒，然后当我真的和家人在一起时，会感觉“啊，真期待下次假期”。可能实际情况很糟糕，也可能只是不错。但关键是，你可以从对未来的期待中获得一点当下的效用。
▶ 英文原文 ⏱
Now, what anticipatory utility is, is a much newer concept because, like you said, the idea of utility goes all the way back to Bentham, if not earlier. Or to the Garden of Eden, perhaps. I don't think it's in the Old Testament, but maybe it was implied. George Loewenstein is a behavioral economist. And he wrote this paper in the 80s about anticipatory utility. The novel idea was that we don't only want to think about your utility from what you're consuming at the moment, but also the anticipation of consuming something in the future can provide utility today. It's like the future version of savoring. It's like the vacation I haven't had yet, which is going to be amazing. And then once I'm actually there with my family, it's like, oof, can't wait till the next vacation. And maybe it's terrible, but maybe it's just good. But the point is that you can kind of get a little bit of present utility out of what you expect to happen in the future.
所以可以说，我不太擅长预期效用。如果让我绞尽脑汁去想我什么时候体验过预期效用，那都不是出于我自己的意愿。我记得那是在五年级的时候，我在新泽西州樱桃山的Woodcrest小学上学。我们每周都有一次拼写测试。为了激励我们，奖品是如果你得了满分，就能在Vito's Pizza领取一片披萨。也许是你需要连续一个月都拿满分，不管规则是什么。我记得走到老师的桌子前，说我想兑现我的披萨奖励。我还记得我的老师每周都会告诉我：不是这周，下周可以。真是让人不解！
▶ 英文原文 ⏱
So you could say I'm not very good at anticipatory utility. If I had to rack my brain for any time in which I did experience anticipatory utility, it wasn't even my own volition. So in, I think it was fifth grade, I went to Woodcrest Elementary School in Cherry Hill, New Jersey, and we had a spelling test every week. And to incentivize us, the prize was that if you got a perfect score, then you would get a slice of pizza at Vito's Pizza. And maybe it was like you had to get a month of perfect score, whatever it was. I remember walking up to my teacher's desk and saying, hey, I'm cashing in. I want my Vito's Pizza. And I remember my teacher would say to me like each week, not this week, next week. What the heck?
所以整整一年，我都在想，这是不是复利的效果？我能得到五个比萨饼吗？真的。但最终到了年底，天气变暖，我们正准备放暑假。这位老师兑现了承诺，带我们去了Vito's比萨店，我们只得到了一个切片。我记得当时觉得这是个很好的“把戏”，因为我整整秋、冬、春三季都在期待着这个奖励。不过，说实话，我觉得这不算好把戏。一般的小学生可能都要对老师动刀子了，或者提起诉讼。是啊，绝对的。不过我自己当时倾向于不诉讼也不暴力。
▶ 英文原文 ⏱
So the whole year, and I was thinking like, is this compound interest? Do I get five pizza pies? Seriously. But it turns out that at the end of the year, you know, the weather is warm. We're just about to get out for summer. This teacher made good and took us to Vito's Pizza and we got exactly one slice. But I did remember thinking that it was a pretty good trick because I had anticipatory utility responsibility for the fall, the winter and the spring. Okay. First of all, I don't think it's a good trick. The average elementary school student would have knifed the teacher. Would be suing. Yeah, absolutely. I wasn't very litigious or violent.
大约十年前，Roland Fryer是否进行过类似的研究，试图通过各种奖励来激励学生更好地学习？有些奖励可能包括少量现金或手机通话时间等奖品。结果是否显示，如果成就和奖励之间的时间间隔不够短，大多数人根本不会有所提升？这些研究是由Roland Fryer和Will Dobie进行的。他们进行了很多实验，试图了解激励措施是否以及如何能够改善学业表现。你提到的研究发现表明，可以激励“投入”（如努力学习），但无法直接激励“结果”（如考试成绩）。
▶ 英文原文 ⏱
Didn't Roland Fryer do work like this about 10, 12 years ago where they were trying to incentivize students basically to do better with different kinds of payouts? Some were maybe small amounts of cash. Cell phone minutes. Exactly. And didn't they find that unless the accomplishment and the reward were fairly closely tied in time, that most people just didn't improve at all? So this is research by Roland Fryer and Will Dobie. They've done lots of experiments on trying to understand whether and how incentives could improve academic performance. And the finding of the study that you're referring to is that you can incentivize, as they put it, the inputs, but you can't incentivize the outputs.
换句话说，比如说，你希望孩子在学校表现得更好。如果你对他们说，嘿，如果你在年终拿到全A，我会给你500美元。这样的激励效果往往不太好。但如果你一路上通过激励具体行为，比如今天你读这本书，我会给你一美元。很好。然后，今天如果你在课堂上专心听讲，我再给你一美元。这种方式相对更有效。问题是，年轻人是否不能被延迟的奖励激励呢？这与延迟满足有关。顺便说一下，不只是四岁的小孩，对所有人来说延迟满足都很困难，因为奖励被延后似乎会削弱它的吸引力。
▶ 英文原文 ⏱
In other words, say, for example, you want a kid to do better in school. If you say, hey, at the end of the year, if you get A's, I'll give you $500. That ends up being not very effective. But if you incentivize behaviors all along the way, like today, if you read this book, I'll give you a dollar. It's like, great. Now, today, if you pay attention in class, I'll give you another dollar. That is more effective relatively. The question is, is it that you can't incentivize young people with delayed rewards? This goes back to a delay of gratification. And the reason, by the way, delayed gratification is hard for everyone, not just four-year-olds, is that there is something about a reward being removed in time that kind of bleaches its power.
这有点像，哦，我今天得到一片披萨，太好了。哦，我在一周后能再得到一片披萨。所以，这意味着你无法通过及时的回报来激励人们，因为回报是延迟的。这很有趣，因为如果把这个讨论扩展到政治领域，它让我想到了一些政策问题。我最近听到有人谈论美国，特别是联邦储备为解决通胀所做的努力。有人认为，宏观经济学家们能够用来解决通胀的方法都是长期的解决方案。然而，人们在短期内就受到影响，因为虽然这可能是真的，比如你的主要目标是降低汽油、食品甚至房价的X百分比，但在短期内做到这一点会很困难。于是，人们可能会说，既然短期内无法实现，就放弃长期的考虑吧。
▶ 英文原文 ⏱
It's sort of like, oh, I get a piece of pizza today. Yay. Oh, I get a piece of pizza in a week. So that could be that you can't incentivize outputs because they're delayed in time. It's so interesting because if you extend this discussion into the political realm, this does make me think about some policy questions. I heard recently someone talking about the U.S., especially the Federal Reserve efforts to address inflation. And the argument was everything that the macroeconomists are able to do to address inflation, that's a long-term solution. And people are hurting in the short run because, yes, it may be true that let's say your primary goal is to drive down the price of gasoline and groceries and maybe even housing by X percent. And that's going to be hard to do in the short term. You just start to say, well, you know, it's not going to do it in the short term. So let's abandon the long-term thinking.
我认为，这就是我们在这个国家的政策制定中经常做的事情。当你观察医疗、教育、经济等问题时，我觉得华盛顿已经变得非常冷漠，以至于“积累”和“使用”这个问题不幸地比我希望的更为重要。我认为，我们可以从延迟满足的研究中找到一些有益的方法性见解。所以在那个棉花糖实验中，虽然我们已经明确它不完全等同于预期效用，因为参与者只是等待两个东西而不是一个。然而，我认为，如果你问谁是那些能够延迟满足的孩子，以及是什么使他们与那些立即吃掉一个棉花糖的孩子不同？
▶ 英文原文 ⏱
And that, I think, is what we often do in policymaking in this country. When you look at health care, education, economic stuff, Washington, I feel, has gotten cynical to the point where this hoarding versus using question is unfortunately much more relevant than I wish it were. I think we can mine the delay of gratification research here for some useful prescriptive insights. So in the marshmallow task, which we've already established, is not exactly the same thing as anticipatory utility because you're just waiting for two things instead of one. Nevertheless, I think if you ask the question, who are the children who are able to delay gratification and what makes them different from the children who are going to gobble one marshmallow right away?
我想说的是，关于这个问题的争论一直持续到现在，并且还在继续。大家在讨论“棉花糖实验”究竟是真正衡量延迟满足能力的工具，还是仅仅反映了一个人的社会经济地位或环境的混乱程度？对于人们对棉花糖的偏好，一般来说，这个因素已经被排除了。因为每个人都喜欢棉花糖吗？其实并不是这么简单。做这个实验时，我们会给孩子们提供一系列的零食选项，让他们挑选自己最喜欢的。我明白了。而且，当我参与这个实验—我曾和沃尔特·米歇尔一起工作并复刻过这个实验，有个有趣的事实是，棉花糖并不是最受欢迎的，反而是奥利奥饼干。不过我扯远了。
▶ 英文原文 ⏱
And I want to say that there are debates about this all the way up into right now and ongoing about whether the marshmallow task really measures the ability to delay gratification or is it just an index of socioeconomic status or how much chaos is going on? For marshmallow appetite, generally. No, they've actually ruled that out. Because everybody loves marshmallows? Well, no. The way you do this task, actually, is that you give a selection of treats to kids. And so you have them pick their favorite treat. I see. And actually, when I did this, because I worked with Walter Mischel and I replicated this experiment, fun fact, marshmallows were not the most popular. It was Oreos. But I digress.
过去几十年来的研究表明，有趣的是，推迟满足感的诀窍是将满足感提早到当前。例如，Stephen，我决定吃一个苹果并去跑步。这两件事我今天都做了。你可能会问，我这样做是因为希望20年后我更有可能过上健康长寿的生活吗？是否因为延迟满足而采取行动？还是我找到了一种方法来享受脆苹果，甚至享受跑步呢？我是否已经将满足感提前了？答案是，大多数人，包括我自己，以及在我们所描述的实验中的孩子们，实际上都在寻找方法来获得预期中的快乐，无论是通过饮食还是锻炼。
▶ 英文原文 ⏱
The research that has been done over the last couple of decades is that, interestingly, the trick to delaying gratification is to bring the gratification forward in time. Say, Stephen, I decide to eat an apple and go for a run. Both things that I've done today. You could say, well, are you doing it because in 20 years it's going to be slightly more likely that you will be living a healthy and long life? Like, am I basically doing something because of delay of gratification? Or have I found ways to enjoy crispy apples and even enjoy my run? Have I brought gratification forward in time? And the answer is that I think most people, including me, and including those children, actually, in the experiment that we were describing, find ways to either have anticipatory utility or for eating and exercise.
有时候，这就像是你身份的一部分，这会立刻带来满足感。我们也许会因为听一个很棒的播客或做你真正喜欢的尊巴舞，而找到享受锻炼的方法。从政策的角度来看，考虑对我们所有人长期有益的政策是没错的。但如果你希望人们为退休存钱，希望人们吃得健康，希望禁运政策奏效，它们不仅仅要依赖于未来将发生的事情。我们确实需要跨越时间。所有人，不只是四岁的小孩，都需要在今天感受到一些好处，才能真正被激励去做某事。
▶ 英文原文 ⏱
Sometimes it's like part of your identity, and that's immediately rewarding. We might find ways to enjoy exercise because we listen to a great podcast or Zumba or something that you really like. So I think that from a policy perspective, we're not wrong to want to think about policies that are good for all of us in the long-term future. But if you want people to stay for retirement, if you want people to eat healthy, if you want embargoes to work, they have to actually not only work because of something that's going to happen in the future. We do need to bridge time. And all people, not just four-year-olds, need to experience some utility today for them to really be motivated to do something.
即将在《No Stupid Questions》中讨论的话题，Stephen 和 Angela 将深入解析狂热追剧的心理学。就像所有让你得到满足感的循环，结束后你又会再次渴望那种感觉，于是你会去看《权力的游戏》的下一集。在我们回到 Stephen 和 Angela 关于预期效用和延迟满足的讨论之前，我们先来听听大家对这个话题的看法。我们邀请听众发送语音消息，分享他们作为“用户”或“保护者”的经历。以下是你们的分享。你好，Stephen 和 Angela。我是 Jimmy。虽说随着年龄增长，我现在平和了许多，但年轻时我是个彻头彻尾的“保护者”，甚至到了影响我生活的地步。
▶ 英文原文 ⏱
Still to come on No Stupid Questions, Stephen and Angela break down the psychology of binge watching. Like all cycles where you get some utility and then it's over, you need your fix again. You go and you watch the next episode of Game of Thrones. Before we return to Stephen and Angela's conversation about anticipatory utility and delay of gratification, let's hear some of your thoughts on the topic. We asked listeners to send us voice memos about their experiences as users or preservers. Here's what you said. Hi, Stephen and Angela. This is Jimmy. While I've mellowed a lot with age, as a young man, I was a hardcore preserver, like to the point where it got in my way.
我想这可能是因为我非常享受对某件事情的期待，同时又害怕在享受之后感到失望。比如说，我在一个呼叫中心工作，每次工作四小时，我们几乎可以随时休息15分钟。但是，我对休息的期待感到如此美好，以至于我一再地推迟休息时间，甚至很多时候最后根本就没有休息。但是，现在我非常喜欢NSQ电台，并且在新节目发布的当天就会收听。所以，我改变了。
▶ 英文原文 ⏱
I think it's because I relished the anticipation so much of something and feared being let down after enjoying it. So, for example, I worked four-hour shifts in a call center and we could take our 15-minute break pretty much whenever we wanted. Well, the idea of the break was so sweet to me that I would push it back and push it back to the point where a lot of times I just didn't even take it at all. But anyway, I love NSQ and I listen to it now the day it drops. So I've grown.
这是来自阳光明媚的俄勒冈州波特兰的约翰，我现在代表一号棉花糖队。给我、给我、给我。这则故事发生在我三年级的时候，那时我在一所天主教学校上学。我们其中一位比较严厉的老师有天下午给了我们吹泡糖，并宣布我们要去教堂，而且不能碰它。整个过程中，我们必须把糖果放在腰部。而我花了大约20分钟才意识到，如果我低下头，我还是可以舔到糖果，算是遵守了规定的字面意思，虽然不符合其精神。不过，我的老师并不在意这些技巧问题，因为她就在大家面前非常严厉地没收了我的糖果，让我感到极大的羞愧。
▶ 英文原文 ⏱
This is John from sunny Portland, Oregon, calling to represent Team One Marshmallow now. Gimme, gimme, gimme. This story comes from when I was in third grade at Catholic school and one of our more sadistic teachers gave us blow pops one afternoon and announced that we had to head over to the chapel and we couldn't touch them. We had to keep them at our hip the entire time. And it took me about 20 minutes to realize that if I craned down, I could lick the lollipop and adhere to the letter of the law, if not the spirit of it. I guess my teacher wasn't so much for technicalities because she took my lollipop right there in front of everybody with maximum shame.
无论如何，我一生中确实在需要规划未来的各种事情上遇到过不少困难。但我想说的是，心理治疗、药物治疗，特别是学习心理学，都让我对大脑的运作有了更深入的了解。总之，向帮助自我认知的知识源泉致敬。谢谢。
▶ 英文原文 ⏱
Anyway, my whole life, I've definitely struggled with all sorts of things that require future planning and things like that. But I will say therapy and drugs and especially going to school. School for psychology has been really insightful for how my brain works. Anyway, just a shout out for the intellectual root of self-knowledge. Thanks.
我觉得我是那种一买东西就迫不及待想要赶紧用的人。我总是想立即试用，这可能和我奶奶有关。每次我们给她买生日礼物或圣诞礼物的时候，她总是把它们放在衣橱的最里面。这让我很好奇，她为什么这样做？为什么她要推迟使用这些东西？另外，我心里也想到，她的时间可能不多了，她应该用这些东西。这让我意识到，我们每个人都有可能第二天就不在了，既然现在可以用并享受这些东西，为什么要等以后呢？
▶ 英文原文 ⏱
I think I'm the kind of person who devours things when I buy anything. I want to test it straight away and I think it comes from the fact that my grandma, whenever we get her something for her birthday or for Christmas, she would always put it at the end of her wardrobe. And it always made me wonder, why is she doing this? Why is she putting this off? And, you know, also thinking somewhere there at the back of my head that she doesn't have long life to live and she should be using all these things. And that also makes me realize that we can all die the next day and why would we save things for later if we can just use it and enjoy it while we have them.
那刚才发言的是Jimmy LuPone、John Hawkins Gordon和Veronica Adamczyk。感谢他们以及所有向我们分享想法的人。现在，让我们回到Stephen和Angela关于推迟消费与立即使用的心理学对话。我认为，在这段对话中，一个显而易见的思考方向是，当我们讨论获取某样东西后是否使用它时，整个问题当然围绕在这个东西是什么、你有多需要它，甚至可能还有它的数量。
▶ 英文原文 ⏱
That was, respectively, Jimmy LuPone, John Hawkins Gordon, and Veronica Adamczyk. Thanks to them and to everyone who sent us their thoughts. Now, back to Stephen and Angela's conversation about the psychology of delaying consumption versus using things immediately. I think an obvious step back to take here in this conversation is when we talk about acquiring something and then using it or not using it, the whole question, of course, revolves around what the thing is and how much you need it and maybe even how many of them there are.
我用鞋子来举例。我不知道你怎么想，但我一次只能穿一双鞋。我想大多数人都一样吧？这很合理，我们只有两只脚。然而，我知道大多数美国人确实拥有很多鞋子。我以为你会说大多数女人拥有很多鞋子，这样我就要“取消”你了。这里有个调查：你猜平均每个美国男性有多少双鞋？天哪，我以前在我的统计课上经常问这个问题，因为这样我可以给他们展示数据分布。
▶ 英文原文 ⏱
I think about this with shoes. Like, I don't know about you. I can only wear one pair of shoes at one time. And I think most people, right? Fair assumption. Limited number of feet. And yet, I do know that most Americans own a lot of shoes. I thought you were going to say most women. Then I was going to cancel you. Here's a survey. The average American man owns, how many pairs would you guess? Oh, my gosh. I used to ask this in my stats class because then I could show them distributions.
我觉得我会说11。哦，你很厉害。12。这是因为我在过去10年的10个统计学课程中收集了这方面的数据。那么美国女性呢？女性的话，我会说大概25左右。这很不错。是的，根据这个调查，我不是说这是完美的科学，美国女性平均拥有惊人的27双。
▶ 英文原文 ⏱
I think I'll say 11. Oh, you are good. 12. See, this is because I've collected data on this from, like, 10 stats classes over 10 years. All right. Then American woman? Women, I'm going to go with, like, 25 or something. That's really good. Yeah. From this one survey, I'm not saying this is perfect science. The average American woman owns a whopping 27 pairs.
所以，无论如何，购买一双鞋可以放在物质和物质主义的范畴下，对吧？这些是我们获得的实物。然后我们决定如何以及使用多少。我相信您已故的朋友和同事，米哈伊·契克森特米哈伊，他区分了两种类型的物质主义。其中一种他称之为终极物质主义，就是纯粹为了拥有某物，或者是为了让别人觉得我们有趣或重要，类似的原因。
▶ 英文原文 ⏱
So anyway, the purchase of a pair of shoes, we could put under the general category of material and materialism, right? Those are physical things that we acquire. Then we decide how and how much we're going to use them. I believe that your late friend and colleague, Mike Csikszentmihalyi, he distinguished between these two types of materialism. One that he called terminal materialism, which is wanting something for its own sake or maybe to make other people think that we're interesting or important or something like that.
不过，还有一种完全不同的类型，他称之为工具性物质主义。那是指当一个物品成为与另一个人或另一种感情之间的桥梁时的情形。当我读到这一点时，我心里想，哦，天哪，是的，这就是我的物质主义。我不太关心物品本身，除非是那些我确实需要或者需要以实用方式使用的东西。物品本身并不是最终目的。
▶ 英文原文 ⏱
But then a totally different type, what he called instrumental materialism. And that's the case when the object is a bridge to another person or another feeling. And when I read that, I thought, oh, gosh, yeah, that's my kind of materialism. Like, I don't care so much about stuff except for the stuff that I really need or need to use in a utilitarian fashion. It's not an end in itself.
是的，我得说，在送礼这方面，如果你能送出一份与对方有意义的礼物，那就再好不过了。比如，我的妻子艾伦送给我几件礼物都特别棒，因为她很用心，但更重要的是，这些礼物如同齐克森特米哈伊所说的那样，能够搭建起与他人或是某种情感的桥梁。我曾与艺术家艾未未聊过一段时间，我非常喜欢他的作品。他是一位非常聪明、用心、多才多艺且有趣的艺术家和人。艾伦知道我在那次交流后，对艾未未的世界观特别感兴趣。他曾经在中国的一个以制瓷闻名的小镇上完成了一个重要的项目，该镇有着多年的陶瓷制作历史。
▶ 英文原文 ⏱
Yeah. And I have to say, when it comes to gift giving, if you can give a gift that has that connection for someone. So my wife, Ellen, she's given me a couple of gifts that are just so good because they're thoughtful. But also what they do is, as Csikszentmihalyi said, they form a bridge to another person or another feeling. I'd spent a little time speaking with the artist Ai Weiwei. I love Ai Weiwei's work. He's a really smart, thoughtful, deeply variegated and interesting artist and human. She knew I came away from that encounter just being really deeply interested in the way he thinks about the world. He had done this one big project where he had porcelain makers in this town in China that was known for making porcelain for many, many, many, many years.
他委托他们制作这些看起来像真实葵花籽的小瓷葵花籽。他们可能制作了数百万颗，至少有成千上万颗。这些瓷葵花籽曾在一个展览中展出。我想说是在伦敦的泰特美术馆，但实际上它是一个充满这些葵花籽的巨大沙箱，旨在代表包括中国瓷器产业在内的许多不同事物。不管怎样，艾伦在网上找了一些。要买到这些小种子非常困难，但不知怎么地有一些流出。我希望它们不是被偷的。虽然我知道在博物馆里，人们通常会顺手拿一些放进口袋里。但我想相信她得到的是合法生产和合法出售的，而不是来自黑市。她给我买了大约50颗。
▶ 英文原文 ⏱
He commissioned them to make these little porcelain sunflower seeds that look like real sunflower seeds. And they must have made, it might have been in the millions, at least in the many, many, many thousands. And there was an exhibit. I want to say it was at the Tate in London, but it was basically this massive sandbox full of these sunflower seeds that was meant to represent a bunch of different things, including the porcelain industry in China. So anyway, Ellen went online. They were very, very, very hard to buy these little seeds, but there were some stray ones that got out somehow. I hope they weren't stolen. Although I do know at the museum that people would routinely take some and put them in their pocket. But I'd like to think that the ones that she got hold of were legitimately produced and legitimately for sale. Not on the black market. She bought me maybe 50 of them.
什么？她还得到了一个小小的中国碗，据说是从大约100或120年前一艘有些名气的沉船中发现的。我想那艘船叫做德星号。于是，这份礼物就是一个小巧精美的碗，里面装着漂亮的小葵花籽，就放在我的书桌上。每次我坐下来，都禁不住沉浸在历史的联想和那种感受中，也感受到你妻子的用心。我意识到，也许我今天会和你聊这个问题，是因为某种奇怪的原因，这让我着迷。不仅仅是对物品的保存，还有对“收集”的兴趣，我一直很感兴趣。
▶ 英文原文 ⏱
What? And then she also got a little Chinese-made bowl that was found from maybe 100 or 120 years ago in a famous-ish shipwreck. It was a ship that I want to say was called the Tek Sing. And so the gift was this little beautiful bowl with these beautiful little sunflower seeds, and it just sits on my desk. And I have to tell you, every time I sit down at my desk, I spend all this time in reverie just connecting to that history and the feeling. And the thoughtfulness of your wife. You know, I realize maybe one reason I brought this question to you today is because for some strange reason, it fascinates me. Not just the preserving of material things, but also collecting, the instinct to collect I've always been interested in.
这就是终极物质主义，对吧？我觉得按照齐克森特米哈伊的分类来讲，就是为了物品本身而拥有它们。我从来不理解那些喜欢收藏东西的人。你是个收藏家吗？你的桌上有没有超过一碗葵花籽的东西？现在我没有很多真正收藏的东西了。我小时候确实收藏过。我小时候非常热衷于集邮，但在大学一年级结束后，我就把邮票收藏卖掉了，用来给兄弟姐妹买圣诞礼物。说实话，我从那时起一直很后悔。我想知道你邮票收藏卖了多少钱。120美元。那已经是很久之前的事了。那你当初是花多少钱买这些邮票的呢？
▶ 英文原文 ⏱
Which is terminal materialism, I think, in the Csikszentmihalyi classification, right? Having things for their own sake. I've never understood people collecting things. Are you a collector? Do you have more than a bowl of sunflower seeds on your desk? There are not a lot of things that I truly collect now. I did as a kid. I collected stamps as a kid quite aggressively, but I sold my stamp collection after my freshman year of college to buy Christmas presents for my siblings. No. Honestly, I've regretted it ever since. I want to know how much you got for your stamp collection. $120. I mean, this was a long time ago. How much did you buy those stamps for?
所以事情是这样的：这就是为什么我认为这更像是一种工具性物质主义而非终极物质主义的原因。要知道，我在一个大家庭中是最小的，我们身边有很多年长的人，包括家人、朋友以及我的兄弟姐妹。不知为什么，我成了大家把邮票扔给的那个人。我在纽约北部的一个非常偏远的地方长大，那里尤其是年长的人来自世界各地。有来自匈牙利和德国的邻居，还有与英国有联系的人。每当他们从家乡收到邮票时，他们都会送给我。可以说，我的邮票收藏质量并不是特别高，因为首先，我的很多邮票都不是全新的，而是已经盖过邮戳的，并被舔过。
▶ 英文原文 ⏱
So here's the thing. This is why I would argue it was more instrumental materialism than terminal, because, you know, I was the youngest in a big family and we had a lot of just older people around, family, friends, and then my siblings and so on. And somehow I became the end of this funnel into which people would throw their stamps. I grew up in a very rural area of upstate New York, and there were people there, especially older people from all over. There were neighbors from Hungary and Germany and people with ties to Britain. And whenever they would get stamps from people back in their home countries, they would deliver them to me. And I should say, therefore, my stamp collection was not extremely high quality because, first of all, most of my stamps were not mint. They were postmarked. And licked.
当然，那种冲动真的非常非常强烈。现在，我大概主要是在收藏播客节目。你呢？天哪，有没有一个词是形容和囤积狂相反的人？我想那应该是“清理者”。我就是一个清理者。我几乎没有什么东西，我不留书，也不是个收藏家。我不知道这是否和我对未来的期望值不高有关，但我从物品中并没有获得很多乐趣。那么，关于狂欢呢？你是指疯狂地吃东西还是狂看电视节目？都算吧，比如说你得到一个大礼包。那么，小时候你过万圣节吗？
▶ 英文原文 ⏱
But yeah, the impulse was so, so, so strong. And now I guess I mostly collect podcast episodes. How about you? Oh, my gosh. Is there a word for the opposite of a hoarder? I think that would be a perjure. I would be a perjure. Like, I don't have anything. I don't hold on to books. I'm not a collector. I don't know if this is related to not feeling a lot of anticipatory utility, but I don't get a lot of pleasure out of stuff. Now, what about binging? You mean like binging food or binging television shows? Both. Like, let's say you get a bounty. What about, did you do Halloween when you were a kid?
当然，我去过要糖。我会带着我的枕套回家，很多孩子都知道枕套是装万圣节糖果的非常结实的容器。基本上，到十一月底我就会把糖果吃完。我记得我的妹妹特别擅长存糖果。我们也从父母那里得到零花钱，家附近也有一家7-Eleven便利店。所以我们会在那里花我们的零花钱。我妹妹会认真考虑要买什么，通常最后什么也没买。她最终成了医生。而我总是会把钱花光，我不是个会存钱的人。这让我对棉花糖实验更加怀疑。因为你知道我是个一个棉花糖的人，显然没错。我不知道自己是否会是那种为了两个棉花糖而等待的人，我不能确定。
▶ 英文原文 ⏱
Yeah, of course. I trick-or-treated. I would come back with my pillowcase, which, of course, many children learn is a very sturdy container for Halloween candy. And then I pretty much would be through the entire thing by end of November. I remember that my sister in particular was very good at saving. We also got allowance from my parents, and there was a 7-Eleven not too far from where we lived. And so we would get to spend our dollar at the 7-Eleven. And my sister would think really hard about what she wanted and typically would come away having bought nothing. She's going to become a doctor. She did. And I always spent my money. I was not a saver. This makes me even more suspicious of the marshmallow theory because. Because you're thinking I am a one marshmallow girl, obviously. Correct. You know, I don't know that I would have been a two marshmallow girl. I can't say.
不过，我想说，也许我们可以把这称为一种"正念"。也许你可以这样说，哇，Angela Duckworth，她真的活在当下。这是一个非常好的重新定位策略。这只是营销而已。那么，关于一部电视节目呢？你发现一部你喜爱的电视节目，观看了前一两集，十分喜欢。节目总共有六季。这六季你会花多长时间看完呢？我不像有些人，一晚上能看完整季。实际上，我看《权力的游戏》或《了不起的麦瑟尔夫人》时，最多一次也就看两集。我有点晚才加入《权力的游戏》的文化现象，所以我每天晚上都看，一次只看一集，但坚持每晚都看。所以我猜这算是一种有节制的"追剧"。
▶ 英文原文 ⏱
But I will also say that maybe, Stephen, we can brand this as being mindful. Maybe you could just say, wow, that Angela Duckworth, she sure does live in the present. That is a really nice rebranding. That's just marketing. Now, what about a TV show? You discover a TV show you love. You watch the first one or two episodes. You love, love, love it. There are six seasons. How long do those six seasons last you? Well, I'm not as extreme as some people who I think watch like an entire season in a night. In fact, for me, I think the most I've ever watched of like Game of Thrones or The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel is two episodes in a row. I kind of came late to the Game of Thrones cultural phenomenon, and I consumed it every night. Only one, but every night. So I guess that's a kind of binging, like a kind of measured binging.
虽然相比于一般的Netflix狂看者，我觉得你属于观看较少的一类。我看了一篇2016年《纽约时报》John Koblin的文章，他分析了Netflix用户是如何狂看电视剧的，以及哪些类型的剧集被更快地狂看。结果显示，最常被快速狂看的类型主要是恐怖片、惊悚片和科幻片。所谓的快速狂看是指观众能够在大约四天内看完一季，每天观看约两个半小时。我觉得这个结果是有道理的，尤其是恐怖片和惊悚片。你为什么这么说呢？
▶ 英文原文 ⏱
Although compared to the average, let's say, Netflix binger, I think you're on the low scale. I'm looking at a piece from John Koblin in The New York Times in 2016. He writes about an analysis of how Netflix customers are binging and what types of shows are binged faster. It turns out that the genres that are most often really binged, and I mean really fast, this would be where a user would finish a season of a show in about four days and watch about two and a half hours each day. Those genres were horror, thrillers, and sci-fi. I think that makes sense, especially horror and thrillers. Because why do you say?
好吧，悬念。你想知道接下来会发生什么。这是个有趣的论点。你可以说，狂看一整季电视剧其实与“期待效用”相反，对吧？你并没有为以后保留你的观赏，而是直接观看。你可以从一个角度看说你是在浪费“期待效用”，但我认为人们狂看电视剧的原因，首先是因为悬念，其次是因为Netflix会自动播放下一集，你连动都不用动。最后，因为所有让你获得一些乐趣或享受的循环结束后，会让你想要再次体验，这正是导致上瘾的原因。你需要再次“满足”，于是你去看下一集《权力的游戏》。
▶ 英文原文 ⏱
Well, suspense. You want to know what happens next. That's an interesting argument. You could argue that binge-watching is the antithesis of anticipatory utility, right? You're not husbanding your consumption for later. You're just going for it. And you can see on one hand that you're squandering anticipatory utility, but the reason I think people binge-watch things is, first of all, suspense, and second of all, that Netflix serves you up the next thing without you even moving a muscle. And then finally, because like all cycles where you kind of get some utility or some enjoyment and then it's over, this is actually also what perhaps leads to addiction. You need your fix again. You go and you watch the next episode of Game of Thrones.
我确实认为，那些决定不再像我们小时候那样每周播出一集，而是一次性放出整个季度的人，是抓住了人们不断想要“提神”的心理欲望。在我们小时候，一季电视剧是和全美观众一起在八周内观看完毕的，那时不需要自己去控制观影量。如果你对我们容易屈服于这种欲望感到沮丧，我想到了大约30年前尼尔·波兹曼写的一本书《娱乐至死》。这本书虽然不是关于追剧的，因为那时还没有这种现象，但它讲述了人们对媒体或娱乐的过度参与。问题在于：如果看电视不是一个人在智力、生理和社交上可以做的最有益处的事情——这一点我们可能会认同——那么当这件事变得越来越容易做得更多时，这可能就不太好了。
▶ 英文原文 ⏱
And I do think that the powers that be that decided to release seasons not once a week like they were when we were growing up, you didn't have to regulate your own consumption because you would watch it over eight weeks with the rest of America. I do think they're capitalizing on this human desire to just keep upping the fix. If you want to be depressed about our ability to succumb to that, I think of a book from maybe 30 years ago by Neil Postman called Amusing Ourselves to Death, which wasn't about binge-watching because it didn't exist, but it was about an engagement with media or entertainment. But the point is, if watching TV is not the most intellectually and physiologically and socially stimulating thing that one can do, which we could probably agree on, and if it becomes easier and easier and easier to do more of this thing, then that's probably not so good.
但也可能我们正处于初期阶段，人们对它有种反应或者抵触，并开始适应。我想说的是，我有点担心这些统计数据，即普通美国人花在屏幕上消极消费所谓“媒体”的时间。这可能是TikTok视频，也可能是社交媒体。我觉得这有点像哲学问题：如果人们被接入到快乐机器会发生什么。这是那种人们在真正出现可以接入的快乐机器之前就曾思考过的问题。当我随意翻看时，会看到一个关于家庭装修的电视节目，还有一个教你如何烤鸡的节目，以及一个有人在波拉波拉探险的节目。
▶ 英文原文 ⏱
But it may also be that we're in the early days and people kind of feel a reaction to it or against it and start to adapt. Well, I'll say this. I'm a little worried about these statistics, about the number of hours that your typical American is spending passively consuming, quote unquote, media on screens. It could be TikTok videos. It could be social media. I do think it's like that philosophy problem, like what would happen if people were plugged into pleasure machines. It's one of those things that people thought about before there really were pleasure machines that you could plug yourself into. And when I flip through, you know, there's a TV show on about home improvement. There's another one on where you can roast your own chicken and then you can watch somebody taking an adventure in Bora Bora.
此外，谈到这种替代体验，有多少人看这些节目的人并不会因此去改善自己的房子，不会自己去做烤鸡，当然也不会去玻拉玻拉群岛。所以我不想听起来像是反对什么，但我有点觉得，用一整天的时间看别人生活，真不是很好。好了，岔开一下话题，说到烤鸡。我可以告诉你我这周第一次尝试做什么吗？当然可以，我对烤鸡非常感兴趣。在我们住了大约六年的公寓里，我发现我们自带的烤箱居然有一个旋转烤鸡的功能。它会像超市那样转动鸡肉？没错！等等，什么？它是个可以拆开的装置，所以我一直没有注意到。我在清理一个抽屉时发现了这些零件，看起来像是一个还没组装好的刑具，至少对于鸡来说是这样。
▶ 英文原文 ⏱
Also, just how vicarious it is, like most people who watch those shows are not going to improve their own house. They're not going to make their own roast chicken. They're certainly not going to go to Bora Bora. So I don't want to sound reactionary, but I kind of feel like, oh, my gosh, spending hours and hours and hours a day watching other people live life. No, it's not so great. OK, tangent, roasting chicken. Can I tell you what I did this week for the first time ever? Yeah, of course I want to know. I'm very interested in roast chickens. I discovered after living in our current apartment for about six years that the oven that we own came with a rotisserie attachment. That rotates the chicken inside, like at the supermarket? Oh, yeah. Wait, what? It is a contraption that comes in pieces, and that's why I never noticed it. I was cleaning out a drawer and I found all these. It looks like a torture machine that's unassembled, which is essentially what it is for the chicken, at least.
那么，这个过程效果如何呢？很神奇吗？我得说，准备和清理的麻烦实在不值，这只能算是为了好玩。不过，还算挺有趣的。希望你在期待中没有太多负担。我倒没有，也没有因为这个而囤积鸡。啊，真是松了一口气。不过，你知道吗？我收回这句话。我还是买了两只鸡，把它们放冰箱里冷冻起来，以便下次有做烧烤鸡的冲动时，可以随时准备好。基本上，你今天不吃鸡，而是明天吃两只。干得好，Stephen。我为你感到骄傲。广告之后，我们将对今天的对话进行事实核查。
▶ 英文原文 ⏱
And how did it work? Was it amazing? I have to say the preparation and cleanup is not worth it. It's definitely not worth it other than for kicks. But it was a lot of kicks. Well, hopefully you didn't have too much anticipatory disutility. I did not, nor am I hoarding chickens to do this for. Ah, what a relief. Although, you know what? I take it back. I did buy two more chickens, put them in the freezer, so the next time that the urge to rotisserie strikes, I'm ready to go. Basically, instead of having one chicken today, you're having two chickens tomorrow. Well done, Stephen. I'm very proud of you. Coming up after the break, a fact check of today's conversation.
现在，我们来核实一下今天谈话中的一个事实。在节目的前半部分，Stephen 提到，“tapuach”在现代希伯来语中是“苹果”的意思，而在圣经时代，这个词只是一个泛指构指水果的名称。这样的说法是正确的。然而，这个词在《创世记》中并未出现。相反，《创世记》中使用了另一个表示水果的希伯来词“pari”。不过，很难确定这个词具体指什么水果。苹果在伊甸园里并不存在。主要的考古学家和圣经学者认为，《创世记》对伊甸园的描述反映的是位于现今伊拉克的南美索不达弥亚地区。而苹果的源头可以追溯到哈萨克斯坦，那地方距伊拉克有超过一千英里的距离。
▶ 英文原文 ⏱
And now, here's a fact check of today's conversation. In the first half of the show, Stephen says that tapuach, the modern Hebrew word for apple, was just a generic term for fruit in biblical times. This is true. However, the word doesn't appear anywhere in Genesis. Instead, the Hebrew term pari, another term for fruit, is used. Still, it's not clear what exactly the word refers to. Apples would not have been available in the Garden of Eden. Leading archaeologists and biblical scholars believe that the garden's description in Genesis reflects a location in southern Mesopotamia, now Iraq. And the very first apple can be traced back to Kazakhstan, which is more than a thousand miles away.
后来，斯蒂芬提到他的妻子艾伦送给他一组瓷制向日葵种子，这些种子是由艺术家和政治活动家艾未未设计的。他说，最初的装置作品包含数千甚至数百万颗种子。实际上，在2010年，1亿颗种子堆放在伦敦泰特现代美术馆的涡轮大厅中。起初，参观者可以在种子坑中玩耍，并且很可能会顺手带走一些瓷种子。然而，很快就发现与这些种子的接触会产生一种危险的灰尘，可能会被吸入，因此该装置被围了起来。在展览结束后，许多种子在苏富比拍卖会上售出，如果你愿意接受挑战，从中挑出原件而不是复制品，似乎仍然可以购买到这些种子。
▶ 英文原文 ⏱
Later, Stephen shares that his wife Ellen gave him a collection of porcelain sunflower seeds, designed by the artist and political activist Ai Weiwei. He says that the original installation included thousands, possibly millions of seeds. In fact, in 2010, 100 million seeds were piled in the Turbine Hall of the Tate Modern in London. Initially, visitors were able to play in the seed pit, and certainly pocketed pieces of porcelain. However, it was soon discovered that interacting with the seeds created a dust that could be dangerous to inhale, and the installation was roped off. After the exhibit ended, many of the seeds were sold at a Sotheby's auction, and it still appears possible to purchase them if you're up for the challenge of sorting the originals from the replicas.
最后，Angela 描述了所谓“连接快乐机器的哲学问题”。有几个经典的参考文献符合这种描述，但 Angela 很可能想到的是美国哲学家罗伯特·诺齐克在他1974年的著作《无政府主义、国家与乌托邦》中描述的思想实验。在书中，人类可以选择真实体验现实，或者永远生活在一个愉快的虚拟环境中。诺齐克认为，大多数人会选择不连接到快乐机器中。他于2002年去世，比Netflix开始其流媒体服务早了五年。这就是事实核查的全部内容。《No Stupid Questions》是Freakonomics Radio Network的一部分，我们所有的节目都由Renbud Radio制作。
▶ 英文原文 ⏱
Finally, Angela describes the, quote, philosophical problem of being plugged into a pleasure machine. There are several canonical references that fit this description. But Angela was likely thinking of the thought experiment described by American philosopher Robert Nozick in his 1974 book Anarchy, State, and Utopia. In the book, humans have the choice to experience reality as it exists, or to live forever in a pleasant simulation. Nozick posited that most people would choose not to plug into the pleasure machine. He died in 2002, five years before Netflix began its streaming services. That's it for the fact check. No Stupid Questions is part of the Freakonomics Radio Network. All our shows are produced by Renbud Radio.
《No Stupid Questions》由我——丽贝卡·李·道格拉斯制作。本节目由埃莉诺·奥斯本混音。我们的主题曲是 Talking Heads 的《And She Was》。特别感谢大卫·拜恩和韦尔纳教堂音乐。想了解更多或阅读节目文字记录，请访问 Freakonomics.com/NSQ。感谢您的收听。我特别喜欢材质很薄的黑色高领衫，这大概是我的内在或外在的史蒂夫·乔布斯灵魂吧。Freakonomics 电台网络：揭示一切背后的秘密。
▶ 英文原文 ⏱
No Stupid Questions is produced by me, Rebecca Lee Douglas. This show was mixed by Eleanor Osborne. Our theme song is And She Was by Talking Heads. Special thanks to David Byrne and Werner Chapel Music. To learn more or to read episode transcripts, visit Freakonomics.com slash NSQ. Thanks for listening. I'm really into black turtlenecks that are very thin material. It's sort of my inner Steve Jobs or something. Or outer Steve Jobs, even. The Freakonomics Radio Network. The hidden side of everything.